Census of Quirinius
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17-12-2013, 04:09 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 04:02 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  How might one ever consider one source as more valid than another? In history, or in any other field?

Hint: it is in fact possible.
Yes, I know it's possible. That's why I asked for reasons. Unfortunately I got a circular response.

The response you got was that it does not agree with sources which are considered reliable.

That's not circular. But thanks for playing.

(17-12-2013 04:02 PM)alpha male Wrote:  A number of ways that have nothing to do with this issue. Start another thread if you like.

So, then: according to you, reasons for accepting or rejecting the extraordinary claims of a purportedly historical document have nothing to do with... accepting or rejecting the extraordinary claims of a purportedly historical document.

An... interesting claim, to be sure.

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17-12-2013, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2013 07:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 02:36 PM)alpha male Wrote:  And this is the real reason: a priori materialist bias.

How lame. Address the issues at hand .. oh you can't.
The gospels were in no way "historical" They were written to be proclaimed in liturgies by BELIEVERS to remind BELIEVERS what they already BELIEVED.
You don't like the answer you get, so you parrot that old chestnut, judging people you don't even know as you have nothing more interesting to say.
How creative. Wrong. More like ; "a priori show me the evidence".
You have none. So you NEED to impute a worldview which you assume to be inauthentic. Maybe you better change your name to zed-male.

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17-12-2013, 05:31 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 02:36 PM)alpha male Wrote:  And this is the real reason: a priori materialist bias.

Let's say you ask me how I got to work. If I told you I drove my car, you would probably trust me. If I told you I took my helicopter, you'd probably be skeptical. You might trust me if a mutual friend confirmed it and said they flew in it.

Now, what if I told you I flew my Pegasus? What would it take for you to believe it? Why did you give this answer?
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18-12-2013, 02:21 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 05:31 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:36 PM)alpha male Wrote:  And this is the real reason: a priori materialist bias.

Let's say you ask me how I got to work. If I told you I drove my car, you would probably trust me. If I told you I took my helicopter, you'd probably be skeptical. You might trust me if a mutual friend confirmed it and said they flew in it.

Now, what if I told you I flew my Pegasus? What would it take for you to believe it? Why did you give this answer?

Give it a few hundred years, and have your Pegasus work trip recorded down after generations of anonymous oral tradition. Then have that story copied, re-copied, translated, and re-translated a few dozen times; then I'm sure alpha would find it eminently reliable.

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18-12-2013, 07:02 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 04:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The response you got was that it does not agree with sources which are considered reliable.

That's not circular. But thanks for playing.
Still circular.

Why should we accept that Josephus is accurate and Luke is inaccurate?
Because Josephus is considered reliable.

Quote:So, then: according to you, reasons for accepting or rejecting the extraordinary claims of a purportedly historical document have nothing to do with... accepting or rejecting the extraordinary claims of a purportedly historical document.

An... interesting claim, to be sure.
No, according to me, a census isn't an extraordinary claim.
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18-12-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 04:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  How lame. Address the issues at hand .. oh you can't.
Sure I can. There are two sources that disagree. You guys insist Josephus is accurate. I ask why and get circular responses. So far you haven't shown that it's unreasonable to accept Luke.
Quote:The gospels were in no way "historical" They were written to be proclaimed in lituries by BELIEVERS to remind BELIEVERS what they already BELIEVED.
You don't like the answer you get, so you parrot that old chestnut, judging people you don't even know as you have nothing more interesting to say.
How creative. Wrong. More like ; "a priori show me the evidence".
You have none. So you NEED to impute a worldview which you assume to be inauthentic. Maybe you better change your name to zed-male.
You're correct in that I don't like circular responses. So far no one's shown why it's unreasonable to accept Luke.
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18-12-2013, 07:10 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(17-12-2013 05:31 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:36 PM)alpha male Wrote:  And this is the real reason: a priori materialist bias.

Let's say you ask me how I got to work. If I told you I drove my car, you would probably trust me. If I told you I took my helicopter, you'd probably be skeptical. You might trust me if a mutual friend confirmed it and said they flew in it.

Now, what if I told you I flew my Pegasus? What would it take for you to believe it? Why did you give this answer?
A census is analogous to the car, not the Pegasus.
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18-12-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 07:08 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Sure I can. There are two sources that disagree. You guys insist Josephus is accurate. I ask why and get circular responses. So far you haven't shown that it's unreasonable to accept Luke.

Clearly you never read the thread. I said the opposite, and explained why.

(18-12-2013 07:08 AM)alpha male Wrote:  You're correct in that I don't like circular responses. So far no one's shown why it's unreasonable to accept Luke.

Yes they have. You did not like what you got, so you either ignored it or couldn't understand what you were reading. In light of the fact you claimed I said precisely what I did not say about Josephus, I assume you're trolling here, and didn't even ready the damn thread.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-12-2013, 07:26 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
Quote:Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star 20 resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 22 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."
That's from Josephus. If recording supernatural events makes Luke unreliable regarding the mundane, then Josephus is likewise unreliable.
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18-12-2013, 07:32 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 07:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Clearly you never read the thread. I said the opposite, and explained why.
You're right, I missed your second post.
Quote:Yes they have. You did not like what you got, so you either ignored it or couldn't understand what you were reading. In light of the fact you claimed I said precisely what I did not say about Josephus, I assume you're trolling here, and didn't even ready the damn thread.
Are you saying that it's unreasonable to accept either of them? If so, no arguments here.
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