Census of Quirinius
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18-12-2013, 11:33 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 11:27 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I said that one reason to not take the word of Luke is that it's full of a bunch of claims of extraordinary things. You said this is materialistic bias. That is the context of the quote.

Answer the question. Is the belief that I flew a pegasus as credible as me driving a car? Why or why not? What would it take to get you to believe I flew a pegasus.
Note that I've since posted extraordinary claims made by Josephus. If you want to argue that such claims discredit the mundane claims made by the same author, that's fine by me. Now we have no accurate date for the census.
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18-12-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 10:08 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:because he needed an excuse to put Josef and Mary in a town that did not exist at that time because of a misinterpreted prophecy. That alone makes everything else in that work tainted, no circular reasoning necessary.
1. Are you claiming Bethlehem didn't exist then?

2. It would have been much easier to simply say they were visiting relatives in Bethlehem, or in Bethlehem due to a festival in Jerusalem, or some such.

It looks like you're trying to disprove Luke's motive for fabricating this portion of the text by saying there would be easier ways to do it. Technically, the best you can do with this approach is prove that Luke isn't very good at coming up with easy or convincing lies, or that he's otherwise stupid.
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18-12-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 11:33 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 11:27 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I said that one reason to not take the word of Luke is that it's full of a bunch of claims of extraordinary things. You said this is materialistic bias. That is the context of the quote.

Answer the question. Is the belief that I flew a pegasus as credible as me driving a car? Why or why not? What would it take to get you to believe I flew a pegasus.
Note that I've since posted extraordinary claims made by Josephus. If you want to argue that such claims discredit the mundane claims made by the same author, that's fine by me. Now we have no accurate date for the census.

Two things:

1) What was Josephus' motivation to lie?

2) For the third time: answer the question!
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18-12-2013, 11:53 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 11:37 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It looks like you're trying to disprove Luke's motive for fabricating this portion of the text by saying there would be easier ways to do it. Technically, the best you can do with this approach is prove that Luke isn't very good at coming up with easy or convincing lies, or that he's otherwise stupid.
Or that he was reporting accurately, as there was no need to invent an elaborate lie.
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18-12-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 11:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Two things:

1) What was Josephus' motivation to lie?
I don't know that he was lying. If he was, I don't know his motivation.
Quote:2) For the third time: answer the question!
Why? It's a red herring. Start another thread if you want to discuss means of differentiating extraordinary claims.
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18-12-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 11:55 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 11:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Two things:

1) What was Josephus' motivation to lie?
I don't know that he was lying. If he was, I don't know his motivation.

But we do know that Luke had a motive to lie.


(18-12-2013 11:55 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:2) For the third time: answer the question!
Why? It's a red herring. Start another thread if you want to discuss means of differentiating extraordinary claims.

It's not a red herring; it's perfectly apt to the response you gave, on topic, in this thread. You can't use an argument in an on topic discussion and then refuse to talk about it when it's put under scrutiny. Now, of course, I know why you haven't answered it three times. No matter how you answer it, it has consequences:

You say that it's more reasonable to believe in cars then pegasai. The fact that Luke makes a bunch of fantastic, otherwise unsubstantiated claims makes his account, less than credible.

You double down and say that to hold them to different standards would be a materialist bias, at which point you become literally insane. Not functionally insane, or sort of, or some type of simile, but actually, literally insane.

I think the reasons why we give more weight to things that we actually know exist than to those that we don't should be obvious. There is no reason that every decision I make needs to be weight against literally an infinite number of nonfalsifiable claims before I can make my decision.

"Should I cross the road? Not yet, a car is coming. Of course, how do I know there's a car there? I might be in the Matrix and be able to stop it with my mind. It'd be biased of me to assume otherwise."
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18-12-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
Quote:You say that it's more reasonable to believe in cars then pegasai. The fact that Luke makes a bunch of fantastic, otherwise unsubstantiated claims makes his account, less than credible.
Fine - then Josephus is also less than credible, and you have no evidence of an error by Luke.
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18-12-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 12:44 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:You say that it's more reasonable to believe in cars then pegasai. The fact that Luke makes a bunch of fantastic, otherwise unsubstantiated claims makes his account, less than credible.
Fine - then Josephus is also less than credible, and you have no evidence of an error by Luke.

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18-12-2013, 01:13 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 12:44 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:You say that it's more reasonable to believe in cars then pegasai. The fact that Luke makes a bunch of fantastic, otherwise unsubstantiated claims makes his account, less than credible.
Fine - then Josephus is also less than credible, and you have no evidence of an error by Luke.

What extraordinary claims does Josephus make?
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18-12-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: Census of Quirinius
(18-12-2013 01:13 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 12:44 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Fine - then Josephus is also less than credible, and you have no evidence of an error by Luke.

What extraordinary claims does Josephus make?
Maybe you missed the post. Heifer gives birth to a lamb, armies running about in the clouds, etc.

Do you believe those things happened?
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