Challenge to proponents of objective morality
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23-08-2017, 05:29 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
Does this mean that truth is not objective?
...

Correct. It's not. It's conditional.

(23-08-2017 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
In some situations what's morally wrong is ambiguous (unlike in certain situation, such as torturing innocent babies just for fun, it's not).
...

I'm trying to remember how many times now that I have pointed the flaw in your argument, above.

Do I need to do it again?

Dodgy

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23-08-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 05:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
Does this mean that truth is not objective?
...

Correct. It's not. It's conditional.

(23-08-2017 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
In some situations what's morally wrong is ambiguous (unlike in certain situation, such as torturing innocent babies just for fun, it's not).
...

I'm trying to remember how many times now that I have pointed the flaw in your argument, above.

Do I need to do it again?

Dodgy

I'm sorry I can't say I remember your argument at all. But if you're like Girlyman, and believe that truth and not just morality are subjective, then I don't care to argue otherwise.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-08-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 11:31 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  If someone claims something is true, it's up to them to demonstrate that it's true. They draw their line in the sand, and then give evidence for why the line should be there. We then evaluate the evidence. For anything beyond the trivial, the scientific method has been the only reliable way of doing this.

Let's rephrase that in regards to morality. If someone claims something is immoral, it's up to them to demonstrate that it's immoral. They draw their line int he sand, and then given evidence for why the line should be there. We then evaluate the evidence.


But let's address the problem, you said "we then evaluate".

The ways in which any two people evaluate what's true, the criteria in which they might rely on, the standards that need to met before they accept something as true, can differ. Our epistemologies are not particularly universal.

Does this mean that truth is not objective?

My main point, is that yours and other people's arguments, against objective morality, can just as easily be reformatted to apply to truth. And in fact if I were to accept your argument that morality is subjective, in order to be consistent, I'd have to concede that truth is subjective as well, by the same criteria being appealed to by individuals such as yourself to suggest that morality is not objective.

If we were to summarize the arguments against objective morality, it often involves the facts that two people can differ on what they believe is immoral. In some situations what's morally wrong is ambiguous (unlike in certain situation, such as torturing innocent babies just for fun, it's not). Different people have different criteria for what constitutes as immoral.

All of which is true for "truth" as well.
These people seem to grow and many natively have different wavelengths of moral values, and judge grand ideas differently.. why does that exist in the design of a singular moral code. More of that punishment of those sky climbers?

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"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-08-2017, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2017 06:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 05:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
Does this mean that truth is not objective?
...

Correct. It's not. It's conditional.

I gave up trying to beat this through his dim brain years ago now. He does not possess sufficient education to comment on truth. I learned when I was 12 yo being taught the difference between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries, the fundamental power of postulates on the determination of truth. Truth is entirely conditional on the axiomatic framework. We fucking made it to be malleable in the first place, you fuckwit. Tomasia does not have the sufficient education that 12 yo had when it comes to even commenting on truth. And yet, he persists.

#sigh
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23-08-2017, 05:57 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 05:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
I'm sorry I can't say I remember your argument at all. But if you're like Girlyman, and believe that truth and not just morality are subjective, then I don't care to argue otherwise.

Blink

You can't remember it despite the fact that I've called you out on ignoring it before and re-posted it for you before. Dodgy

Also, I have explained to you, at least twice, why morality is neither subjective nor objective. And I'm pretty sure you've replied to that.

Would you like me to do it again?

Do you suffer from memory-leak at work too? You're beginning to worry me.

Tongue

(23-08-2017 05:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...
Tomasia does not have the sufficient education that 12 yo had when it comes to even commenting on truth. And yet, he persists.

Ain't dat da troof.

Cool

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23-08-2017, 06:22 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 05:57 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Also, I have explained to you, at least twice, why morality is neither subjective nor objective. And I'm pretty sure you've replied to that.

Would you like me to do it again?

You hold that morality nor truth, are subjective or objective.

I was never addressing this argument, or your position. I'm addressing individuals who hold that morality is subjective, and truth is objective. Which clearly is not the position you or Girlyman hold.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-08-2017, 06:26 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 05:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Truth is entirely conditional on the axiomatic framework. We fucking made it to be malleable in the first place, you fuckwit. Tomasia does not have the sufficient education that 12 yo had when it comes to even commenting on truth. And yet, he persists.

You having a bad day buddy?

Do you think your views on truth, on objectivity, and subjectivity are representative of the views of most atheists here? If not, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-08-2017, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2017 06:44 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 06:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-08-2017 05:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Truth is entirely conditional on the axiomatic framework. We fucking made it to be malleable in the first place, you fuckwit. Tomasia does not have the sufficient education that 12 yo had when it comes to even commenting on truth. And yet, he persists.

You having a bad day buddy?

Do you think your views on truth, on objectivity, and subjectivity are representative of the views of most atheists here? If not, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

You have demonstrated over and over that you lack basic elementary education on the nature of truth. My guess is you've never even fucking heard of Boole or truth tables. I do find you qualified and even interesting when you stick to discussions of objective v/ subjective morality. When you speak of truth, a topic which you are demonstrably unqualified to even comment on, you only diminish your credibility on those other topics.

#sigh
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23-08-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 06:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You have demonstrated over and over that you lack basic elementary education on the nature of truth. My guess is you've never even fucking heard of Boole. I do find you qualified and even interesting when you stick to discussions of objective v/ subjective morality. When you speak of truth, of which you are demonstrably unqualified to even comment on, you only diminish your credibility on those other topics.

I have an education on par with the average person here with a Bachelors Degree.

Whether or not that's on par with you, or DLJ is of no concern to me. Nor do I care about your esteem.

I can speak on whatever subject I choose too, even if its your own sacred cow. So pardon me while I continue speaking on both truth, and morality. My apologies if your feelings get hurt in the process.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-08-2017, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2017 06:56 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Challenge to proponents of objective morality
(23-08-2017 06:44 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I can speak on whatever subject I choose too, even if its your own sacred cow.

Why yes, yes you can. Who am I to deny you the opportunity of making a fool of yourself in the public square? To be honest, I rather enjoy your public displays of ignorance and find them most entertaining. ... While that would normally make me feel like a bad man for taking pleasure in your public display of ignorance, Jesus says it's okay to ridicule idiotic ignorance when it's accompanied by the degree of unsupported arrogance you display.

#sigh
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