Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
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19-11-2014, 07:10 AM
Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
This Sunday I will be meeting with the pastor of my old church. I really want to present him with a case against preaching to ignorant minds fairy tails stated as facts with no evidence to back them up.

I am going to try to talk to GWG tomorrow, and I have a feeling he will give me more than enough information, but I wanted to get other input as well.

An example I plan on using is teen pregnancy and abortion rates are highest where there is lower reproductive sex education. (which is pushed for by religious groups as abstinence only) any other ideas like that would be great and very appreciated. Thanks!

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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19-11-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
I'm not sure I understand your objective on this one. Are you hoping to de-convert the pastor? Even if you do (indicating that he was probably 'close to the edge' already), what are the chances that he will quit preaching? The pulpits of many churches are filled with atheist preachers just because they do not have any other trade on which to fall back?

Are you hoping to get him to just water-down his message where it does not emphasize Christian mythology as much? I don't think a lot of Christians will side-step the gospel message when they think that this is the answer to the world's problems (even if the statistics don't back them up--as is the case with teen pregnancy).

Are you just hoping to plant the proverbial seed? Not that it ever hurts to discuss the important issues, but I think this isn't always as effective when discussed one-on-one with someone who is rigidly locked into his beliefs (his rigidity is an assumption based on the fact that, as I stated before, the stability of his entire life--financial and otherwise--is precariously balanced on his ability to maintain this belief). Debates are usually not won against your opponent directly, but rather in the information that is presented to the bystanders. Would there be a way to do this with an audience?

Are you just hoping to have an intelligent conversation? I'm always for that. You can present statistics on colleges being less likely to admit students who were taught Creationism in high school (this was part of the ID in public schools debate). There are statistics on the 'happiest countries' and the 'best countries to live in' (lowest crime, best health care etc) being non-religious. On the opposite end of the spectrum, some of the lowest ranking countries are thoroughly theistic. Granted many of these are Muslim nations, but it is indicative of the inherent problems when a country is so thoroughly infused with religious thought at the expense of reason.

Best of luck!

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19-11-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
(19-11-2014 07:47 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  I'm not sure I understand your objective on this one.

I am hoping to have an intelligent conversation with him, which I think won't be a problem. I have some good ideas for the following points (although it never hurts to get other great input) which are my top reasons someone shouldn't believe in a god.

1. Why god isn't real.
2. Unreliability of the bible. History, etc.
3. Violence because of religion.

In addition to these, I'm looking at other angles like the ones you brought up in the third paragraph in which to show more dangers of religion.

Essentially I want to show him it's crazy to believe in a god and that as a person with some authority, it's immoral to teach these things as fact and they can cause a lot of harm. I think as you said that there are a lot of atheist pastors but they think it's ok to preach this stuff because they only see the good that comes from it.

I'm hoping that this will lead to more dialogue, and possibly the opportunity to do a debate, or even host small groups where I can lay out the facts.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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19-11-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
(19-11-2014 11:47 AM)microterf Wrote:  I am hoping to have an intelligent conversation with him, which I think won't be a problem. I have some good ideas for the following points (although it never hurts to get other great input) which are my top reasons someone shouldn't believe in a god.

1. Why god isn't real.
2. Unreliability of the bible. History, etc.
3. Violence because of religion.

In addition to these, I'm looking at other angles like the ones you brought up in the third paragraph in which to show more dangers of religion.
I don't think it helps to point out the "evils" that religious people/organisations have inflicted on humanity.

Their way out is that people are corrupt. That the "evils" were a result of the fall of humans rather being an intrinsic aspect of religion.

1. There is no evidence that god isn't real (you can't prove a negative, you can't prove that fairies don't exist)
2. You are just not interpreting it correctly. You need to read it in context, blah blah.
3. Violence because of corrupt people due to the fall of "man".

Personally I'd like to point out that with the requirement for faith and belief that you must make a choice to believe despite the lack of evidence. You may as well get a spinning wheel , put all the names of the various gods and a space for the no god, spin it and throw a dart at it while blindfolded. Then put all your efforts into believing in that god (be it Odin, Zeus, Allah, Tane, Vishnu, Ra, YHWH, ...
It would be like being a business owner and hiring based on luck rather than CV credentials. Put a hat in the middle of the room, blindfold yourself, throw the job applications in the general direction of the hat and simply hire all the lucky applicants.

But even that wouldn't work. No doubt your pastor has a "personal experience" which gives him no doubt that it is his god that is the one.

I think pastor's are best avoided, why waste your time?
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19-11-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
I'm not meeting with him for this sole purpose, we are meeting to catch up. He knows my views and I'm sure that religion will come up. I want to have a good solid list of what I want to talk about if it does.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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20-11-2014, 03:41 AM
RE: Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
(19-11-2014 03:55 PM)microterf Wrote:  I'm not meeting with him for this sole purpose, we are meeting to catch up. He knows my views and I'm sure that religion will come up. I want to have a good solid list of what I want to talk about if it does.

watch AntiCitizenX's youtube channel for some useful ideas
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20-11-2014, 03:55 AM
RE: Challenging morality of preaching with pastor
(20-11-2014 03:41 AM)Ace Wrote:  watch AntiCitizenX's youtube channel for some useful ideas

Thank you. I'll check it out.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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