Chaotic Determinism
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04-11-2011, 11:20 PM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
(04-11-2011 10:22 PM)Atheist#6667 Wrote:  
(04-11-2011 09:29 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Everybody has morality. Everybody makes choices.

Anybody else can't pass the Turing test. Tongue

Aha! Thank you, I actually understand you now, for 3 whole sentences!

Trinity. Big Grin

What makes me hard to understand is, well, evolution. One of the deepest ingrained assumptions we all share is future - I know there ain't no future. I also know you can't take a leak without assuming you have a leak to give and a place to put it.

Things have never been known to fall up. That's the law of gravity. Theory still needs work. I'll keep assuming I know what a toilet is and what it is for. Tongue

(which is me saying as a writer, I must simulate reader and make assumption. It is now less assumption that an atheist knows what a Turing test is. Big Grin)

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04-11-2011, 11:34 PM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
All these potential answers.............which leads me to wonder.

On a universal scale is there a question???

Is everything chaotic.......or is it just where it should be???

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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05-11-2011, 12:32 AM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
(04-11-2011 11:20 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  (which is me saying as a writer, I must simulate reader and make assumption. It is now less assumption that an atheist knows what a Turing test is. Big Grin)

I actually recently learned what a Turing test was in Psychology on the chapter on Intelligence.
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05-11-2011, 01:24 AM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
(04-11-2011 11:34 PM)bemore Wrote:  All these potential answers.............which leads me to wonder.

On a universal scale is there a question???

Is everything chaotic.......or is it just where it should be???

Yeah, one. Why?

The secret is to never stop asking. See me asking? See me not killing creationists? There you go. Big Grin

Don't be a creationist. Ain't no "should." We ain't that intelligent yet. Tongue

If one has an original thought, in what language? I'm thinking mathematics. Got that from the Bible - "In the beginning, the Word was God, the Word was with God..." - what's missing in that equation?

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05-11-2011, 11:54 AM
 
RE: Chaotic Determinism
(04-11-2011 12:44 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  As a general rule, it seems to me that "morality" is no more than the preferred position of the advocate for whatever is being debated.

I see the major conditions relevant to a secular morality as freedom from pain, hunger, thirst and the provision of fresh air and shelter. These seem the essential needs before branching out into other "rights" many of which are of a dubious nature.

Even the most basic of "rights" may need to give way to allegedly greater rights if we adopt a utilitarian position. Governments will invest in cures for the most common ailments, even where it may be self induced.....excessive alcohol, smoking etc while those with rare ailments will be placed in the too hard basket.

Is morality really any more than a power thing ensconced within, often, devious , malevolent and egocentric notions of what the "higher good" really is?

When the "higher good" embraces heavens, hells, purgatories, reincarnations, afterlives etc the waters become even further muddied.(Command morality)

WE can intuit morality to mild degrees I believe, but the complexities involved make it easier for us to assume the role of puppets governed by a myriad of conflicting interests and values. As R.D. Laing put it"people playing the game of reality with no real cards in their hands.

Its not easy being human.Confused

Very well said, Mr Woof! Smile

I tried to formalize universal morality (which I believe in) in the "What does the word 'Honour' mean to you" thread.

I also have a thread somewhere on "How to resolve conflicting loyalties" and here (Post #25).

They are both relevant (and don't bring me the example of sadists and masochists and other sick minds, because they are a negligible minority, not relevant to the big picture.)

There is a whole lot of shit that can be said about morality but nothing will change simple facts.

You want a Zatamon test?

Here it is:

1. We live or die.

2. We are happy or we suffer.

3. We build or we destroy

Of course millions of states exist between those extremes I listed, but you can draw an average. Human average in 2011, looking at the entire planet, is piss poor, to use polite language.

When we raise the average to an acceptable level, then, and only then, can we indulge in esoteric speculation about esoteric morality.

The planet is a cesspool and we are drowning in it.

Start morality classes with this statement and you will be on the right path. Rolleyes

Sorry guys, I am an incurable humanist (and that includes all living creatures)! Smile
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06-11-2011, 01:35 PM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
(05-11-2011 11:54 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  They are both relevant (and don't bring me the example of sadists and masochists and other sick minds, because they are a negligible minority, not relevant to the big picture.)

Are you talking to me? Tongue

Everybody is relevant to a big picture that is not exclusionary. I understand what you and Woof are stating, and it is my consideration that there is a better way. I'm working on it. Wink

(Now Imma go scope your links)

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06-11-2011, 01:46 PM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
I won't even begin to pretend I have any idea of what cantor is talking about. Do we seek morality by finding things we prefer on some level? I don't know even if that's what was said. Are we speaking the same language? I think not. All I can say is, if what mr woof said is in the same vain of conversation I have to agree with him an not just because I understood what he wrote but because it's the same stance I take on morality. We don't do things based on personal reactions to those things. I don't stab people because it hurts to be stabbed (trust me it does). Otherwise why wouldn't I stab people? On a sociopathic level it would serve my purposes in some situations so why not? Because I wouldn't want to be stabbed. It would suck. Thereby I keep my stabbing handy only for when it is the only option. I don't know what cantor said or if there was even a question so I can't debate it.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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06-11-2011, 04:06 PM
RE: Chaotic Determinism
(06-11-2011 01:46 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I won't even begin to pretend I have any idea of what cantor is talking about. Do we seek morality by finding things we prefer on some level? I don't know even if that's what was said. Are we speaking the same language? I think not. All I can say is, if what mr woof said is in the same vain of conversation I have to agree with him an not just because I understood what he wrote but because it's the same stance I take on morality. We don't do things based on personal reactions to those things. I don't stab people because it hurts to be stabbed (trust me it does). Otherwise why wouldn't I stab people? On a sociopathic level it would serve my purposes in some situations so why not? Because I wouldn't want to be stabbed. It would suck. Thereby I keep my stabbing handy only for when it is the only option. I don't know what cantor said or if there was even a question so I can't debate it.

I apologize. I suck at clarity not because I'm a poor writer, but rather due to the fact that ethical standard is chock full of invalid assumptions. I don't agree with Woof at all, not because he is wrong, but because he is pimping the same faulty ethical standard.

I don't stab people cause it is fucking gross. (Yeah, I know it hurts. I also know I'm an animal who will defend its life as an animal. Like the fist-thing with the thumb sticking out - less mess, better effectiveness. Wink)

Zero-state and determinism is part of the inchoate philosophy of Chaotic Determinism. Here's a question:

Do you agree with determinism, or do you factor will into the equation?

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