Chas. I'm sorry.
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13-05-2014, 12:57 AM
Chas. I'm sorry.
You were right, way back when, when you said "Everything is bullshit until proven otherwise." I gave you crap for it, but you're right, bro.

The thing is that Occam's Razor - the basic idea that the simplest answer should be taken as the most likely - tells me that when I hear a thing that sounds like bullshit, odds are, it probably is. When someone tells me they woke up and saw a ghost in their room, I'm inclined to believe it's bullshit. And why am I justified in this? Because there are so many other reasons why this person might've had this - or at least believe they had this - experience, that it's very, very probable that their initial conclusion that it was a "ghost" is, in fact, bullshit.

Back then, I took it at face value. I heard "everything is bullshit" and took that as a positive claim. Naturally, as a skeptic, I require backing evidence for positive claims, and that meant that I wanted evidence that the claim was, objectively, bullshit. (Which didn't make sense because what if the thing wasn't, ultimately, bullshit? Then the claim would have been false)

But now I get it. I understand that, until a claim can be demonstrated to be true, the only logical course of action is to assume (a key word, there) that it is false. I do this with gods all of the time. "You haven't proven your god exists yet? Oh cool, cool. Then I'm just gonna assume he's bullshit." It's what we do - the majority of us - as atheists. We don't positively believe that the gods are non-existent, usually, but we do assume that they are, simply because there's no evidence to show otherwise.

So, I get it. I got it this evening and I felt compelled to waste valuable (lol) forum space telling you openly. I was wrong, and I now understand the reasoning.

Cheers, brother. Thumbsup

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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13-05-2014, 08:17 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(13-05-2014 12:57 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  You were right, way back when, when you said "Everything is bullshit until proven otherwise." I gave you crap for it, but you're right, bro.

The thing is that Occam's Razor - the basic idea that the simplest answer should be taken as the most likely - tells me that when I hear a thing that sounds like bullshit, odds are, it probably is. When someone tells me they woke up and saw a ghost in their room, I'm inclined to believe it's bullshit. And why am I justified in this? Because there are so many other reasons why this person might've had this - or at least believe they had this - experience, that it's very, very probable that their initial conclusion that it was a "ghost" is, in fact, bullshit.

Back then, I took it at face value. I heard "everything is bullshit" and took that as a positive claim. Naturally, as a skeptic, I require backing evidence for positive claims, and that meant that I wanted evidence that the claim was, objectively, bullshit. (Which didn't make sense because what if the thing wasn't, ultimately, bullshit? Then the claim would have been false)

But now I get it. I understand that, until a claim can be demonstrated to be true, the only logical course of action is to assume (a key word, there) that it is false. I do this with gods all of the time. "You haven't proven your god exists yet? Oh cool, cool. Then I'm just gonna assume he's bullshit." It's what we do - the majority of us - as atheists. We don't positively believe that the gods are non-existent, usually, but we do assume that they are, simply because there's no evidence to show otherwise.

So, I get it. I got it this evening and I felt compelled to waste valuable (lol) forum space telling you openly. I was wrong, and I now understand the reasoning.

Cheers, brother. Thumbsup

Thanks for the thanks. Thumbsup

I'm very pleased that something I said meant something to someone. Yes

Now about those piercings ... Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-05-2014, 10:35 PM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(13-05-2014 08:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-05-2014 12:57 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  You were right, way back when, when you said "Everything is bullshit until proven otherwise." I gave you crap for it, but you're right, bro.

The thing is that Occam's Razor - the basic idea that the simplest answer should be taken as the most likely - tells me that when I hear a thing that sounds like bullshit, odds are, it probably is. When someone tells me they woke up and saw a ghost in their room, I'm inclined to believe it's bullshit. And why am I justified in this? Because there are so many other reasons why this person might've had this - or at least believe they had this - experience, that it's very, very probable that their initial conclusion that it was a "ghost" is, in fact, bullshit.

Back then, I took it at face value. I heard "everything is bullshit" and took that as a positive claim. Naturally, as a skeptic, I require backing evidence for positive claims, and that meant that I wanted evidence that the claim was, objectively, bullshit. (Which didn't make sense because what if the thing wasn't, ultimately, bullshit? Then the claim would have been false)

But now I get it. I understand that, until a claim can be demonstrated to be true, the only logical course of action is to assume (a key word, there) that it is false. I do this with gods all of the time. "You haven't proven your god exists yet? Oh cool, cool. Then I'm just gonna assume he's bullshit." It's what we do - the majority of us - as atheists. We don't positively believe that the gods are non-existent, usually, but we do assume that they are, simply because there's no evidence to show otherwise.

So, I get it. I got it this evening and I felt compelled to waste valuable (lol) forum space telling you openly. I was wrong, and I now understand the reasoning.

Cheers, brother. Thumbsup

Thanks for the thanks. Thumbsup

I'm very pleased that something I said meant something to someone. Yes

Now about those piercings ... Consider

Let's not get carried away. Dodgy

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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13-05-2014, 11:42 PM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(13-05-2014 12:57 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  But now I get it. I understand that, until a claim can be demonstrated to be true, the only logical course of action is to assume (a key word, there) that it is false.

Thing is that if someone has evidence for a claim which isn't bullshit they're not cagey about showing it. Whereas if not... you get all kinds of "oh, but my evidence is *special*, you must suspend your knowledge of the scientific method in order to understand it"...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-05-2014, 01:38 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(13-05-2014 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-05-2014 12:57 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  But now I get it. I understand that, until a claim can be demonstrated to be true, the only logical course of action is to assume (a key word, there) that it is false.

Thing is that if someone has evidence for a claim which isn't bullshit they're not cagey about showing it. Whereas if not... you get all kinds of "oh, but my evidence is *special*, you must suspend your knowledge of the scientific method in order to understand it"...

"Truth" isn't all that clear.
Scientific pragmatic 'truths' are not necessarily enduring.
There is ongoing change as new evidence comes to hand.
'Bullshit' seems a rather dogmatic term for speculative analysis.....
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14-05-2014, 02:13 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
Carried to its logical extreme we'd have to assume the OP is itself false. But there's no reason to do so because its assertions are not extraordinary (in the important ways - they ARE extraordinary in other ways but not in ways that beg proof).

The whiff of BS is proportional to the extraordinariness of the assertion. If I tell you I went to the store for a pack of cigarettes it's more efficient to assume I'm telling the truth because questioning EVERYTHING bogs us down into "paralysis by analysis".

However, a man sneaking into his house at 4:00AM telling the same thing to his wife unexpectedly waiting up for him WOULD need to present some proof because the extraordinariness of a claim could be its context, not the claim itself.

But whether in context or content, the vital measure is extraordinariness, and the more extraordinary assertions need to be accompanied by proofs.

Simple, except it isn't.

The rub is ascertaining degree of extraordinariness. To correctly assess how extraordinary something is requires knowledge of what's ordinary, and unfortunately there are many ordinary things we falsely think are rare, and many extraordinary things we falsely think are common. In the realm of statistics, where much of this assessment properly resides, most of us think a percentile is that device that needs a token to get onto the subway platform.

So too much BS gets enshrined while other things that should shine get shunned.

And we shrug, frustrated, and call the whole thing a crock.

Meanwhile, congratulations on your insight. And no BS.
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14-05-2014, 03:08 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(14-05-2014 01:38 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  'Bullshit' seems a rather dogmatic term for speculative analysis.....

Speculation's fine. It's when people seek to cross the line from speculation to fact without paying the toll that I get antsy.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-05-2014, 01:21 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
Actually, it should be noted, Chas, that I'm no longer wearing the lip rings. They started "nesting" and new career opportunities presented themselves and one of the holes was still kind of crooked anyway and I just decided "Fuck it." So, breathe easy, old timer. Thumbsup











Everything else is still pierced, though. Tongue

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15-05-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(15-05-2014 01:21 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Actually, it should be noted, Chas, that I'm no longer wearing the lip rings. They started "nesting" and new career opportunities presented themselves and one of the holes was still kind of crooked anyway and I just decided "Fuck it." So, breathe easy, old timer. Thumbsup











Everything else is still pierced, though. Tongue

Everything?!? Shocking

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-05-2014, 02:43 AM
RE: Chas. I'm sorry.
(15-05-2014 08:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 01:21 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Actually, it should be noted, Chas, that I'm no longer wearing the lip rings. They started "nesting" and new career opportunities presented themselves and one of the holes was still kind of crooked anyway and I just decided "Fuck it." So, breathe easy, old timer. Thumbsup











Everything else is still pierced, though. Tongue

Everything?!? Shocking

Drinking Beverage

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