Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
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28-03-2012, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2012 01:16 PM by germanyt.)
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
(28-03-2012 12:38 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  What are you talking about? The weight of vehicles has decreased significantly with the new alloys on the market. Cars used to only be made out of steel, and more steel. It also seems like an exaggeration to claim they have all gotten longer. You are picking a very specific time in history, right after a major oil crisis, when the design of cars became much more compact.

According to my quick google search,
2012 Corolla = 2800 lb curb weight
1980 Corolla = 3000 lb curb weight

Also, weight of vehicles doesn't have a lot to do with Highway fuel efficiency. Once you get up to speed, the aerodynamics of the car is far far more important than how much it weighs.


The curb weight of a 1980 Toyota Corolla is 1845 lbs. Or 839 kgs. A 2012 model is 1000 lbs heavier. Cars are far heavier today than they were just a couple of decades ago.

A 1982 Nissan Sentra weighs 2294 lbs. My 2012 Sentra weighs 3131 lbs.

As for cars getting larger, look at a midsize car from 15 years ago. Like a Camry. It's grown 2-3 inches in width, height, and length since the 1995 model. Probably even more if you look at an 80s Toyota midsize. Yesterdays midsize cars are todays compacts. Cars considered to be subcompacts like the Sonic or Fiesta are the same size (roughly) as compact or even some midsize cars from 30 years ago. So it would only be fair to compare the 40mpg your 1984 Camry got to the 40 mgp that a current Fiesta gets. And the Fiesta would get far more if it had the 1984 Camry exaust system on it.

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28-03-2012, 01:56 PM
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
(28-03-2012 12:38 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(28-03-2012 07:40 AM)germanyt Wrote:  It's quite simple man. The NHTSA along with numerous bills passed by the federal government (EPA) have restricted the emissions that vehicles can produce as well as safety features a vehicle must have. If you look at a compact car from 20 years ago and one from today. Take a 1990 Toyota Corolla and a 2012 Corolla. The new one is like a foot longer and half a foot wider than the old one. The reason is that doors and body panels have to include a certain amount of safety built into the frame and body of the car. This has drastically increased the weight of vehicles in the past 25 years. Manufacturers are doing everything they can to overcome this with light weight materials but it only goes so far with current product design. The other big thing is emissions. Are you aware that the 2012 Ford F-250 w/ 6.7L diesel engine gets about 22 MPG from the factory on the highway (unloaded)? If you remove the federally required exaust system and replace the intake with a more free flow one the same truck with get over 30 MPG. Take 1000 lbs out of it and it'll jump another 25% and that diesel engine will be pushing 40 MPGs. So basically, the reason our cars don't get the same gas mileage they used to is because of government. If you stop by the new car lot and see a sticker price that makes you crap your pants you can thank Uncle Sam.

Also, I can assure you that no company is holding back on technology that would get us to 100+ MPG. If a car company had it they would release it and totally own market share in that car's class.
What are you talking about? The weight of vehicles has decreased significantly with the new alloys on the market. Cars used to only be made out of steel, and more steel. It also seems like an exaggeration to claim they have all gotten longer. You are picking a very specific time in history, right after a major oil crisis, when the design of cars became much more compact.

According to my quick google search,
2012 Corolla = 2800 lb curb weight
1980 Corolla = 3000 lb curb weight

Also, weight of vehicles doesn't have a lot to do with Highway fuel efficiency. Once you get up to speed, the aerodynamics of the car is far far more important than how much it weighs.

Quote:My god, thats some HUGE truck. What does he use it for? Transporting the Moon every now and then?

And I never said this was a conspiracy, I think it is a well known fact, but people are like sheep and do not want to listen. Why is it that every diesel engine is a few thousand Euros more expensive than the same car with the same size of motor, only petrol? I am sure that today, the production of those engines costs the same. Why do I have to pay more expensive registration every year for a diesel, than petrol? My country tells me that it is because of environment and that diesel pollutes more, but that was 30 years ago, today diesel engines pollute LESS than petrol cars. This is, of course different from country to country, but this kind of pattern is everywhere where oil is involved.

If I start producing free biodiesel for myself, and the police sees me do it, I will get a ticket, because I have skipped paying the gas taxes to the state. Because in the price of the gas all sorts of government taxes are included... The list goes on and on...

A lot of rednecks down south buy huge trucks like that just to drive around. They don't work on a farm, nor ever have to pull loads, or even haul off their trash to the dump. They just buy them because they think they look 'cool'.

Rednecks and trucks go together like mustard and hotdogs.

I always heard that diesel trucks cost more to make/fix, than gasoline. However, I just heard that from some rednecks so don't put to much weight into it. Personally I think they cost more because there is less demand for them, because they cost more. Odd how that works, sort of like green technology.
(23-03-2012 11:35 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  There is no such thing as free energy, fossil fuels are about as close as you can get because all you have to do is pump it out of the ground. Hydrogen isn't free, nor is the process of extracting it from water. It takes energy to extract the hydrogen from the water, so unless we use renewable energy to do so it only solves 1 of the 2 problems.

Your car will never run on water, sorry. Most hydrogen cars use hydrogen fuel cells to produce electricity to run an electric motor. The process is quite efficient, so there is no leftover energy to convert water to hydrogen. If you were to instead burn the hydrogen in the combustion engine, then this might be a possibility. However, you lost the efficiency of the electric engine so I doubt you would actually gain anything.

In the last decade the cost of manufacturing fuel cells has dropped 80%, assuming mass manufacturing. In 2010 the DoE estimates the cost of mass manufacturing fuel cells to be about $51/kW. US. Department of Energy's 2012 goal of $30 USD/kW would achieve closer parity with internal combustion engines for automotive applications, allowing a 100 kW fuel cell to be produced for $3000. (100 kW is about 134 hp)

Atm the electric car is just superior for the needs of the average motorist. However, the future will likely be in the hydrogen cars, which gives people the same flexible mobility they enjoy today.



Thats just some ridiculous conspiracy theory. If a car company possessed such technology, hell even a 100 mpg car, they would completely dominate the car market overnight.

Electric cars become far more efficient at higher speeds. Its not meant to be on a race track.
Also the m3 was driven behind the prius, thus drafting and reducing drag.

As far as the inefficiency manufacturing process, well thats to be expected considering how infantile the business is. However, there is a good deal of transportation involved in any car that is manufactured. Its a terribly inefficient system, but one we exploit due to the cheap cost of fossil fuels.

Simply put that was not science, that was a farce from an obviously bias source.
I watched an episode of 'Real time with Bill Maher' the other day, and one of his guests was BoB Lutz who worked from GMC. Anyways, he suggested that in the near future there would be new batteries on the market that could potentially offer 400 miles on a single charge. I think he said that the progression would go from lithium ion to lithium sulfur to lithium air batteries.
Diesel engines actually do cost a bit more to maintain.

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28-03-2012, 02:09 PM
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
(28-03-2012 01:56 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Diesel engines actually do cost a bit more to maintain.


Scheduled maintenance is generally around twice the price of a gas engine. Mostly because they hold so much fluid. Many car dealerships actually lose money on diesel oil changes just so they can keep the customer close if the engine has serious problems. As an option form the factory the 6.7L diesel in the Superduty is like 4 or 5 thousand more dollars. I love diesel motors but 'cot damn'.

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29-03-2012, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2012 01:51 AM by Filox.)
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
First, I apologize for derailing this post a bit...

Now, I have been using a diesel engine for years and I never ever had any single problem with it. The design of a diesel engine is so simple and durable, if you maintain it only a little, it will run forever. Of course, problems can happen, but in the same way as with everything, but everyone I know that uses diesel, nobody ever had any problems. Ever.

Great example is the Mercedes 2.4 diesel engine from 1980's. That is said to run at least 500000 kilometers without any big investments. You just need to change oil and have water for cooling. With some basic maintaining that motor can do a million kilometres (621371 miles), like a god damn truck. There was only one petrol engine with similar numbers, the 1.3 petrol from Suzuki Swift, but old model from 1980's and 1990's, not this new one.

Also, most of today's diesels are using around 47 mpg, while most of the same engine petrols are doing 33 MPG. I'm useing the data for compact class, European cars, small basic engines.

As for the consumption, environment and hybrid car, I saw 2 adds a couple of days ago, it made me laugh and cry at the same time.

A brand new Toyota Yaris Hybrid, does 67.2 MPG! The most efficient petrol car today.

I continued through the pages and 2 pages forward...

A brand new Kia Rio Diesel, does only 73.5 MPG...

So, the simple logic suggests that hybrid technology is the biggest bullshit that ever hit the market. Prius makes so much environmental impact during the production, that it will never make up for it while on the road. The same thing is with every hybrid, the production is so time and money consuming and all those parts must travel around the whole world to be assembled, so it has already made a huge eco-impact before ever turning on the engine. So, if you want an environment friendly car, buy a new diesel. At the moment that is the most eco-friendly design in the world.

Hydrogen has potential, but we are yet to see the eco-impact it has during production of that kind of cars and how much resource we will need to spend to make all that hydrogen. Also, there is a problem with hydrogen stations, you can have that car ONLY in places that support hydrogen cars. So, you can not come to Croatia as a tourist with your hydrogen car, making it non-efficient.

Just for a remark, petrol can go on LPG/GPL gas so that is also a good environment and price benefit. LPG/GPL cost about 50% of regular petrol.

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29-03-2012, 08:18 AM
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
This is the new Ford 6.7L Turbo Diesel. As a crate motor from the factory it costs nearly 15 grand. It's anything but simple. I'd be surprised for anyone to find a more tech advanced and complicated diesel motor anywhere. It has 400 HP and 800 lb. ft and they get worked pretty hard. When they have problems they are expensive and extremely difficult to fix.


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29-03-2012, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2012 11:25 AM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
They are expensive to fix, because there are fewer of them on the market, so diesel repair becomes a more specialized field.

Quote:So, the simple logic suggests that hybrid technology is the biggest
bullshit that ever hit the market. Prius makes so much environmental
impact during the production, that it will never make up for it while on
the road. The same thing is with every hybrid, the production is so
time and money consuming and all those parts must travel around the
whole world to be assembled, so it has already made a huge eco-impact
before ever turning on the engine. So, if you want an environment
friendly car, buy a new diesel. At the moment that is the most
eco-friendly design in the world.
Is that really any different than any other car though? That seems to be a flaw with the global market place more than anything else.


Also watch this,

Start watching Fifth Gear at 5:40 mark to 10:15




Of course this is 88 mpgUK which is 88/1.2 = 73 mpgUS.

They didn't get anywhere near the amount announced, and one of them drove quite conservatively.
It might get 73 mpgUS in neutral going down hill, but thats probably about it.
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30-03-2012, 01:40 AM
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
Germanyt, to take the most advanced engine, the biggest one and present it as a representative of the whole class is just not right. Why didn't you take a normal 2.0 TDI engine from Golf and compare it to 2.0i engine from a Golf? That then makes sense. And the market does play a vital role in the price of the engine, the more you sell something, the price can go down more. Since diesel engines are not selling that much, it is only logical that their price can be higher.

If we were to go back to basic engines, like 20 years ago, what would make a diesel engine more complicated to produce than a petrol one? Engines with no computers and turbines, just plain old-school 2.0 litre engines.

As for those that still live in the past and still think that diesel is slower than a petrol one, you are wrong. A test of BMW M3 3.0 diesel and the same petrol one have showed that there are no noticeable difference in the speed and acceleration. Only the top speed was a bit different, where petrol was slightly faster.

Also, we have this to prove how diesel can be faster than the competition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R15_TDI

For me, there is not a single fact why anyone still produces petrol engines. Diesel is more fuel efficient, more environment friendly, has much more torque, is as fast or even faster than petrol, fuel can be made from much more than just oil, the production cost can be lower, if the market gets larger...

Now back to hydrogen again... How complicated is the production of fuel, or the extraction of hydrogen from water? How much energy it requires and how big environmental impact it all has?

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30-03-2012, 03:04 AM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2012 03:13 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
(30-03-2012 01:40 AM)Filox Wrote:  Now back to hydrogen again... How complicated is the production of fuel, or the extraction of hydrogen from water? How much energy it requires and how big environmental impact it all has?

Creating the hydrogen from water is the easy part and you can use catalysts that harness sunlight or do it using electricity or a combination of both.. Storing it safely... That's hard. Cryogenic storage is expensive and impractical. There are allot of fire/safety issues.

The problem boils down to it being so damn small. The h2 molecule is tiny by comparison to a large molecule like butane.
It's like helium.. Hard to contain. It will seep out through metals like they are a sieve. Especially under high pressure.

There have been some small advances but hydrocarbons are still by far the most practical and convenient form of energy.

I would love to have a hydrogen car if they can get more than 200km on a tank. Think about the issues service stations would have if these storage issues don't get resolved.

Cryogenic storage like what America's retired space shuttles used is definitely a no go.

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30-03-2012, 03:32 AM
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
I kinda figured that will be that will be the case here. How much is the price of hydrogen, as compared to petrol/diesel on gas stations, because we don't have any hydrogen stations in Croatia? I'm asking, so I can do some more calculating and try to see the efficiency, or inefficiency when comparing...

Thanx for the info.

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30-03-2012, 07:15 AM
RE: Check out this hydrogen Mercedes. Awesome video of it with 'invisibility cloak'.
(30-03-2012 03:32 AM)Filox Wrote:  I kinda figured that will be that will be the case here. How much is the price of hydrogen, as compared to petrol/diesel on gas stations, because we don't have any hydrogen stations in Croatia? I'm asking, so I can do some more calculating and try to see the efficiency, or inefficiency when comparing...

Thanx for the info.
We don't have any here so it's probably pretty expensive. It would take a pretty sizable infrastructure overhaul to get stations everywhere and the price per gallon down.

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