Ched Evans rape case
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21-10-2014, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2014 03:30 PM by Hughsie.)
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 01:32 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Where did I say he couldn't be rehabilitated? I am saying he is paying the price for what he did in social scorn. I know not whether he fully understands what he did, nor do I care in this context. For example, are you to say that a company should ignore an individuals past drug convictions because they were in rehabilitation? I don't think it should be ignored, but it most certainly should cushion the reality of the situation.

I really have no pity for Evans -- rape is a serious offense and he is paying for it. Do I think he should get a job? Of course. Do I think he should be rewarded in the sense of accomplishing his goals? No.

See, that's kinda retarded to my mind. What you are essentially asserting is there there should be some kinda of legal authority in the UK that Vets all job applications by convicted sex offenders and assesses them on how likely they are to either bring the person enjoyment or pay well, then vetoes them on that basis.

If a dude still needs to be punished then keep him in prison. If he doesn't then he's done his time and should be allowed to resume his life (applies to all offenders). Setting them free but then acting like a vindictive child to control every aspect of their life to try and make them miserable is not a sensible or rational option in my mind (actually it's not that far from sinister and psychotic).

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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21-10-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I don't know the particulars of this case, but for more people to be charged than convicted is in fact incredibly common.

Yes, but not in this situation I don't think.

I would generally expect that if two guys both admit to having sex with a person in the same incident, and both get accused of rape, that they'd either both be found guilty or both be found innocent.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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21-10-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 10:19 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 08:50 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The thing that bothers me about this is, would we say the same thing if he were a plumber? What about cashier, or a fry cook? I don't understand why the personal affairs of athletes are any of my business. I watch sport (note: I don't watch sports) to see people run really fast, jump really high, throw balls and kick things or whatever. How they behave outside of the game concerns their acquaintances and the law and has not at all to do with me. From a legal-philosophical position, I feel that one of the purposes of a punitive punishment is to absolve the person of previous crimes. "Grudges" in a legal system are very dangerous, unhealthy, and quite unproductive.

Now I get that sponsors of a team or a league probably don't want their brand associated with a known convicted criminal, so in that sense I think he will have a very difficult time getting back into the sport either way. I don't believe that society has a right to tell him he can't play though.

Before I continue, your listed jobs are not usually viewed as a "reward". As a matter of fact, society typically ignores or degrades their positions, no matter how invalid that is.

As for whether or not we should care? Think of how exceedingly difficult it is for a woman who is a rape victim. Businesses are already reluctant to hire anybody who reports sexual harassment or assault -- it is a liability to the establishment's credibility if anything like that is made public. So why should Evans be rewarded for what he did when he just made the victim's life much, much harder? And why shouldn't society have a right to say that he cannot have that job? Society has the right to dictate a vast array of things because we are social animals. From the "value" of a plumber and an athlete, to your right to vote because of a criminal record, or to whether Evans should have gone to prison. I think it is absolutely the right of society to provide the pressure either which way. Not getting the job would be a direct consequence of his crime -- if he didn't want that to happen, maybe he shouldn't have committed social suicide and raped an individual. It's not like you can make him a victim, he did all of this to himself. The negative publicity alone will remain with him for the rest of his life, and we have no one to blame but him.

Playing in a professional sport is not a reward dolled out to society based on who most deserves it, is it is competitive position held by people who display the most athletic ability. Chad Evans is no less a competent athlete for what he did, and he is in every way just as qualified to be a pro soccer player as he was before. His punishment for the crimes he committed was his prison sentence. Nobody is dismissing the harm he did. The question being posed is, at what point do you stop punishing the criminal? I say as soon as his prison sentence is over he has the right to reintegrate into society. You say that his punitive punishments should extend beyond prison. My question is why, and is that healthy?
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21-10-2014, 03:54 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 03:28 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I don't know the particulars of this case, but for more people to be charged than convicted is in fact incredibly common.

Yes, but not in this situation I don't think.

I would generally expect that if two guys both admit to having sex with a person in the same incident, and both get accused of rape, that they'd either both be found guilty or both be found innocent.

You seem to be dismissing evidence that doesn't suit your own opinion. "I don't think" and "I would generally expect" aren't exactly phrases that suggest you have any evidence to back your stance.

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21-10-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 03:54 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  You seem to be dismissing evidence that doesn't suit your own opinion. "I don't think" and "I would generally expect" aren't exactly phrases that suggest you have any evidence to back your stance.

Do I care enough to go do in depth research on rape statistics (and statistics that may not even be available)? No.

Do I think the assertion that in the majority of rape cases you don't have two defendants who both admit to the exact same thing then one gets off and one doesn't, needs a shit load of evidence to back it up? No. I don't need to submit a dossier on here if I claim the majority of grass is green either.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not any type of expert in rape trials. If I am wrong, then refute me by providing evidence for your own claim.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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21-10-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 04:04 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 03:54 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  You seem to be dismissing evidence that doesn't suit your own opinion. "I don't think" and "I would generally expect" aren't exactly phrases that suggest you have any evidence to back your stance.

Do I care enough to go do in depth research on rape statistics (and statistics that may not even be available)? No.

Do I think the assertion that in the majority of rape cases you don't have two defendants who both admit to the exact same thing then one gets off and one doesn't, needs a shit load of evidence to back it up? No. I don't need to submit a dossier on here if I claim the majority of grass is green either.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not any type of expert in rape trials. If I am wrong, then refute me by providing evidence for your own claim.


(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-10-2014, 04:29 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 04:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  

None of them address what I said in the slightest. I said that in the majority of rape cases you don't have two defendants who both admit to having sex with the victim but say it was consensual then one is cleared and the other convicted. I think that specific set of circumstances would be reasonably rare among rape cases.

I never said the majority of rapists are convicted (I already know that they aren't).

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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21-10-2014, 04:51 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 04:04 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Do I care enough to go do in depth research on rape statistics (and statistics that may not even be available)? No.

Do I think the assertion that in the majority of rape cases you don't have two defendants who both admit to the exact same thing then one gets off and one doesn't, needs a shit load of evidence to back it up? No. I don't need to submit a dossier on here if I claim the majority of grass is green either.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not any type of expert in rape trials. If I am wrong, then refute me by providing evidence for your own claim.

You're making the claim, you provide the evidence.

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21-10-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 04:51 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  You're making the claim, you provide the evidence.

Let's list the various possibilities other possibilities on this;

There is only one accused who is found guilty
There is only one accused who is found innocent
There are two accused who are both found guilty
There are two accused who are both found innocent
There are two accused who make different claims about events and one is found guilty and the other innocent
There are more than two accused and all are found guilty
There are more than two accused and all are found innocent
There are more than two accused who make different claims regarding events and some are found guilty whilst others are found innocent


You are seriously telling me that the number of cases where either; there are two accused and both make the exact same claim admitting they had sex with the victim but deny it was non-consensual but one is cleared and one convicted OR there are more than two accused and all make the exact same claim admitting they had sex with the victim but deny it was non-consensual but some are cleared and others are convicted, are more common than ALL of the aforementioned possibilities combined?

If that is seriously your claim then I will assert something more; that you are being intentionally disingenuous.

I cannot find any readily available data on whether the majority of cases involved on defendant or more, let alone anything more specific, and I have no intention of wasting my time trying. Like I said before, I don't need a freaking dossier if I assert that the majority of grass is green.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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21-10-2014, 05:27 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 04:29 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 04:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  

None of them address what I said in the slightest. I said that in the majority of rape cases you don't have two defendants who both admit to having sex with the victim but say it was consensual then one is cleared and the other convicted. I think that specific set of circumstances would be reasonably rare among rape cases.

I never said the majority of rapists are convicted (I already know that they aren't).

Were they tried together or separately? It makes a difference.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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