Ched Evans rape case
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22-10-2014, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2014 05:18 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(22-10-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  That post went on to make clear that I didn't think it was standard to have two defendants who are both accused of the same thing, both admit the same thing, but one is found guilty and the other innocent.

And that point is incorrect. I'm far too lazy to find examples, but this sort of thing happens all the time - that multiple people are charged with criminal offences dating to the same time and place does not mean they will receive the same sentence or conviction.

(22-10-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Hence these sentences that you conveniently missed; Bear in mind that both Evans and his friend had sex with the victim, were charged with rape, but Evans was found guilty whilst his friend was acquitted. I'm not an expert in rape cases but it doesn't sound like the sort of case that will be regularly heard of.

Thing is, that can't be the situation - there by necessity must be additional detail you've missed.
(which is fine, because you admit to not knowing the details and I would hardly expect you to be an expert on the case - but then, you mustn't fill in the blanks with assumptions, which you seem to have done here)

Presupposing as I do that the judge did not just flip a coin, the court must therefore have reason to believe that their behaviour was not the same, or else they would have received the same sentence for doing the same thing in the same situation.

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22-10-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(22-10-2014 05:15 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Thing is, that can't be the situation - there by necessity must be additional detail you've missed.
(which is fine, because you admit to not knowing the details and I would hardly expect you to be an expert on the case - but then, you mustn't fill in the blanks with assumptions, which you seem to have done here)

Presupposing as I do that the judge did not just flip a coin, the court must therefore have reason to believe that their behaviour was not the same, or else they would have received the same sentence for doing the same thing in the same situation.

Here's the wiki entry on the case.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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22-10-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(22-10-2014 05:24 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 05:15 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Thing is, that can't be the situation - there by necessity must be additional detail you've missed.
(which is fine, because you admit to not knowing the details and I would hardly expect you to be an expert on the case - but then, you mustn't fill in the blanks with assumptions, which you seem to have done here)

Presupposing as I do that the judge did not just flip a coin, the court must therefore have reason to believe that their behaviour was not the same, or else they would have received the same sentence for doing the same thing in the same situation.

Here's the wiki entry on the case.

I've read that much. It doesn't specify the legal arguments in any detail.

I nonetheless hope you would agree with me that the rulings of the court, if it were at all competent, would be based on some line of evidence or reasoning?

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22-10-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(22-10-2014 05:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I've read that much. It doesn't specify the legal arguments in any detail.

I nonetheless hope you would agree with me that the rulings of the court, if it were at all competent, would be based on some line of evidence or reasoning?

Of course.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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22-10-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(22-10-2014 05:34 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 05:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I've read that much. It doesn't specify the legal arguments in any detail.

I nonetheless hope you would agree with me that the rulings of the court, if it were at all competent, would be based on some line of evidence or reasoning?

Of course.

Aight. I don't have the time or ability to look into it further. You might, on the off chance you can get into a local university's law library...

That he was released early and likely to see an appeal is worth noting, though. Mistakes can and do happen.
(although it may just be due to the higher profile of the case; somehow I doubt Mr. Not-A-Famous-Footballer would get the same treatment)

Even if the conviction is overturned I doubt he'll get the sporting gig back, but that's a different matter.

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22-10-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Ched Evans rape case
(21-10-2014 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You said there were things he should never be "allowed" to do in the future, based on his past offense.

For as long as establishments scrutinize other individuals for serious criminal offenses or other actions they deem a liability or offense, sans popularity and regional athletic victory, I think he shouldn't be allowed to do so. If he did not represent something so public, like a sports team, and was a "nobody", he most certainly would not fulfill his potential based on his own ability and would not have anybody on his side.

(21-10-2014 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That would depend purely on whether I believed any recidivism or new offense was likely, with the caveat that if an effect on public opinion is also likely then that effect too must be taken into consideration.

Then perhaps employers should share your view, because most of them do not.

(21-10-2014 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In that case I'm quite unclear on how returning to his previous job constitutes being "rewarded". Nor do I understand what separates a job constituting a "reward" from one which does not.

So you would say that giving him the job he wants isn't a reward?

(21-10-2014 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I'm also not actually sure whether you're saying public stigma will restrict his future options or whether it should, but either way that is wholly at odds with the principle of rehabilitative justice.

It will, whether or not you and I want it to.

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