Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
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22-09-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 03:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-09-2015 09:20 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Texas sharpshooter fallacy again.

Minds evolved. Minds which do not possess the ability to accurately interpret sensory information do not survive. Of course the only kinds of minds that we would find in this universe are ones which are suited for it. Any other kind would not survive.

Minds that are not able to recognize the foundational truth of reality survived, in fact they are the predominant minds of all of human history.

Hmm.. I love the loosely defined views here. I'm sure what you mean by "Foundational Truth of Reality" is not likely the wavelength of what he believes "accurately interpret sensory information" means.

Yours sounds like, people were wrong about things like earth being center of the earth. His sounds like, brains don't understand touch/space relation in a macro world for a way for the brain to stabilize and grasp living in this world.

Just wanted to add these sound like 2 different statements that may wind up leading to a bunch of posts of bickering but it doesn't even seem like you two are saying/thinking the same thing at all.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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22-09-2015, 07:06 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2015 07:15 AM by Tomasia.)
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 07:01 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 03:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Minds that are not able to recognize the foundational truth of reality survived, in fact they are the predominant minds of all of human history.

Hmm.. I love the loosely defined views here. I'm sure what you mean by "Foundational Truth of Reality" is not likely the wavelength of what he believes "accurately interpret sensory information" means.

Yours sounds like, people were wrong about things like earth being center of the earth. His sounds like, brains don't understand touch/space relation in a macro world for a way for the brain to stabilize and grasp living in this world.

Just wanted to add these sound like 2 different statements that may wind up leading to a bunch of posts of bickering but it doesn't even seem like you two are saying/thinking the same thing at all.

I defined it several post back in a response to unbeliever. Ontological beliefs, are foundational beliefs. Unbelievers materialistic monism is a foundational belief.

We're proceeding as if one of these foundational beliefs is true, and our minds by some acquired means is able to perceive that it is. And whether or not that would fit our expectations of a non-teleological reality, a reality absent of intentionality, or in other words what I mean by uncreated.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 03:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Minds that are not able to recognize the foundational truth of reality survived, in fact they are the predominant minds of all of human history.

That's wonderful.

There is still no evidence whatsoever of design in the human mind.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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22-09-2015, 10:18 AM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 09:40 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 03:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Minds that are not able to recognize the foundational truth of reality survived, in fact they are the predominant minds of all of human history.

That's wonderful.

There is still no evidence whatsoever of design in the human mind.

What I stated in regards to the mind and reality is evidence, in fact its an observation that you conceded as well. It is evidence, just like all observations are evidence, it's just a question of whether it supports your conclusion better or mine.

While you reject mine, you have yet to provide any meaningful objections as to why.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I stated in regards to the mind and reality is evidence, in fact its an observation that you conceded as well. It is evidence, just like all observations are evidence, it's just a question of whether it supports your conclusion better or mine.

While you reject mine, you have yet to provide any meaningful objections as to why.

All of your arguments rely on dualism. Quit beating around the bush and show us a tenable argument for dualism. Many have tried, all have failed. Dualism was abandoned by most philosophers long ago as indefensible.

#sigh
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22-09-2015, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2015 10:39 AM by Tomasia.)
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 10:33 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I stated in regards to the mind and reality is evidence, in fact its an observation that you conceded as well. It is evidence, just like all observations are evidence, it's just a question of whether it supports your conclusion better or mine.

While you reject mine, you have yet to provide any meaningful objections as to why.

All of your arguments rely on dualism. Quit beating around the bush and show us a tenable argument for dualism. Many have tried, all have failed. Dualism was abandoned by most philosophers long ago.

And all of the counter arguments depend of materialistic monism.

And youre speaking of Cartesian dualism, which is rejected by theists and atheist alike.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I stated in regards to the mind and reality is evidence

No, it isn't. The conclusion that you attempt to draw from it is a non sequitur - that is, your claimed evidence provides absolutely no support for your desired conclusion. You may as well say that an apple being red is indicative of design.

(22-09-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  While you reject mine, you have yet to provide any meaningful objections as to why.

Because your assertion is a non sequitur.

(22-09-2015 10:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And all of the counter arguments depend of materialistic monism.

It's a good thing that materialism is the only ontological position which is actually logical, then.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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22-09-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 10:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 10:33 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  All of your arguments rely on dualism. Quit beating around the bush and show us a tenable argument for dualism. Many have tried, all have failed. Dualism was abandoned by most philosophers long ago.

And youre speaking of Cartesian dualism, which is rejected by theists and atheist alike.

So what you're saying is that mind and brain are not separate. That it is not the case that the mind is immaterial and the brain is material and despite being ontologically distinct, they somehow causally interact. Because that's what Cartesian dualism is. It is most certainly not rejected by the vast majority of Western religions. It is fundamental to their beliefs. It's the only way they can get to heaven.

#sigh
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22-09-2015, 12:52 PM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 10:41 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I stated in regards to the mind and reality is evidence

No, it isn't. The conclusion that you attempt to draw from it is a non sequitur - that is, your claimed evidence provides absolutely no support for your desired conclusion. You may as well say that an apple being red is indicative of design.

..Another meaningless series of objections by you, and by definition false.

Your Siri like responses, your inability to clearly state your objections, beyond a series of one liners like the one I just used, amount to no more than your minor in philosophy going haywire. Just churning out one lines you've overly used, absent of anything thoughtful behind it.

In fact I even provided an outline of an argument, that would be consistent with your beliefs, which you could have built upon, perhaps produced a meaningful response. But you've even failed to do that.

Quote:[quote]

It's a good thing that materialism is the only ontological position which is actually logical, then.

So far you haven't shown that it is. In fact there's likely to be some handful of atheists here who would say they lack a belief in that position as well.

It's perhaps why most atheist prefer to a lack a belief, sit on the sidelines pointing out the problems with other worldviews, rather than argue for the validity of their own. If materialistic monism inspired such confidence, they wouldn't say they just lack a belief in God, but that God does not exist.

But I'm gonna give you another argument I made earlier. One that chops off both of our heads. A position that declares that both of us are wrong. In fact one that's more consistent with atheism than theism. It would just require that you give up your belief in truth, and viability any mental picture of reality, to be accurate representation of it. It's an argument in which truth is just an illusion. More a product of effective advertising than anything else:


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid861107

This way I can keep myself entertained by not just by arguing for a theistic perspective, but what I think makes a more interesting, and more believable godless alternative.

I want to argue that not only do you hold a less believable view than my theism, but not even a more believable atheistic view than the one I'm offering above.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2015 01:13 PM by Tomasia.)
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(22-09-2015 10:53 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 10:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And youre speaking of Cartesian dualism, which is rejected by theists and atheist alike.

So what you're saying is that mind and brain are not separate. That it is not the case that the mind is immaterial and the brain is material and despite being ontologically distinct, they somehow causally interact. Because that's what Cartesian dualism is. It is most certainly not rejected by the vast majority of Western religions. It is fundamental to their beliefs. It's the only way they can get to heaven.

I think you forgot that Descartes influence was primarily in western enlightenment thought, not Christianity. His work were banned by the Catholics, who doubled down on Aquinas, in response to the movement Descartes inspired.

And you'd be hard pressed to find any major branch of Christianity, familiar with Cartesian Dualism, endorsing it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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