Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
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28-09-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Facts do not exist in reality.
Yes they do.
(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A fact is not a physical property of anything.
A fact is an umbrella term, properties of objects are facts.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s a mental representation, an abstract concept.
The weight of your toothbrush is a fact. It is discoverable and objective. Anyone can measure your toothbrush and if they use the equipment correctly they will find the same fact that others will find. The fact that your toothbrush has the property of a specific weight.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My toothbrush is not just a physical item, which has it’s uses, but a fact.
It is a fact that your toothbrush is a toothbrush.
It is a fact that your toothbrush has a specific weight.
It is a fact that your toothbrush has a specific volume.

I don't know the weight of your toothbrush but I am confident, given the opportunity, I could discover that as a fact.


It is an opinion that your toothbrush is a really good toothbrush.

I cannot discover if your toothbrush is really good, I could form my own opinion about it, but my opinion would likely differ from yours.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  the Bible is not just a religious book, it’s a fact……
Yes there is a fact that you have a book called the bible, which is a compilation of many books and stories. The contents, the anecdotal stories in the bible do not represent facts. Even if you believe them to be facts, they are not because they are not objectively discoverable.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Or are some physical items facts, and some are not? If so, is it just human animals drawing these distinctions between facts and non-facts? Or do all animals do so?
It doesn't matter that some humans use the English language and all other Earth based animals do not. The meaning behind the word "fact" still applies.
It does not matter if other animals understand this or not.
The toothbrush still has a specific weight.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There’s no such thing as thinking objectively. You’re trapped in your mind just like everyone else. You reduce a variety of stimuli created by an external reality, into mental compositions, just like everyone else.
What I do differently to you, Tomasia, is that I utilise a critical mind. If someone tells me Jesus rose from the dead. I ask them to show me proof. Who is this Jesus, how do you know he was dead? how do you know he became alive again?

Ultimately I call BS on such a silly and unsupported claim.
If your child dies, is dead, stiff and rotting. Do you cry or do you sit there hoping the kid will rise from the dead and become alive again?
Oh, if only reality were as exciting as you believe it to be.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A man can hold that only those things which he can touch, feel, and see himself, is what he would hold as true, and that he will lack a belief in anything else. He can be entirely consistent with this.
I do find it interesting that Christians often put mascular on things as if women are unimportant. Reading the first few pages of the bible gives the answers. The bible tells us that women are unimportant.


(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  While his picture of the world would be quite shallow, we probably wouldn’t be able to accuse him of being illogical, or irrational.
While "his" picture of the world would be quite accurate, we probably wouldn't be able to accuse him of making unfounded assumptions.

(28-09-2015 07:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Where as you might believe the reality you see is a product of some subset of observations you refer to as “evidential”, “scientific”, produced by a course in physics, of biology, an objective lens you acquired later in life, this is just a sham, your own deeply held myth.
What are you trying to get at Tomasia, you've lost me entirely.
Are you trying to say my critical approach to accepting what is knowledge is no different to your choice to believe in the magic of Jesus based on faith and belief?
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28-09-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 12:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "It's all just subjective interpretations. "

No. Reality is not a subjective interpretation. The universe is not a subjective interpretation.

That abstract image of reality and the universe in your mind is a subjective interpretation. And that's all you ever have of it. Any reality outside of that abstraction is one that doesn't exist for you. That's as close as an absolute truth as you'll ever get.

Quote:Descriptions of various aspects of it by humans mind be, but not all descriptions of it are subjective as some things can be objectively measured and observed. Existence for one is NOT subjective. Nor is occurrence. Something either exists, or doesn't. Something either occurred, or didn't.

If you were to take a ruler and measure the length of a tooth brush, perhaps you can get your wife to do the same thing, letting you know that she read the same number at the end of it, as you did. Perhaps you'll pull out a series of peer reviewed articles on biology, and take it to Francis Collins and he'll agree with the conclusions drawn by them. Yet you'll both have distinctly different views about reality.

You're under the fiction that whatever scientific studies, and writing you've read through the last few years of your adult life, are the foundations of your view of the world. When it really your life and history are. Your atheism less driven by some observed facts of yours, and more so by your longing to identify with some group of people, and the disgust and outrage you feel towards religious identities. It's not coincidence that it wasn't science that ushered the era of the new atheists, but 9/11.

All that a man can see in your view of reality as whole, is you. A large projection of yourself in a world you try to draw for everyone else. Why is that so? Because you can only draw reality from those fragments of your mental images, all colored in and created by your life, and your life exclusively.

Quote:You have a warped view of reality filtered through the belief in supernature and supernatural beings.

Mines is an honest one, yours is the warped one. You probably won't figure that out, since you're surrounded by folks who will just confirm your warped and confused perception of the truth. Because that myth is one they all depend on as well.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 01:06 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 12:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You're under the fiction that whatever scientific studies, and writing you've read through the last few years of your adult life, are the foundations of your view of the world. When it really your life and history are. Your atheism less driven by some observed facts of yours, and more so by your longing to identify with some group of people, and the disgust and outrage you feel towards religious identities. It's not coincidence that it wasn't science that ushered the era of the new atheists, but 9/11.

[Image: mlfw10755_medium.jpg]

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-09-2015, 01:09 PM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 12:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 12:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "It's all just subjective interpretations. "

No. Reality is not a subjective interpretation. The universe is not a subjective interpretation.

That abstract image of reality and the universe in your mind is a subjective interpretation. And that's all you ever have of it. Any reality outside of that abstraction is one that doesn't exist for you. That's as close as an absolute truth as you'll ever get.

Quote:Descriptions of various aspects of it by humans mind be, but not all descriptions of it are subjective as some things can be objectively measured and observed. Existence for one is NOT subjective. Nor is occurrence. Something either exists, or doesn't. Something either occurred, or didn't.

If you were to take a ruler and measure the length of a tooth brush, perhaps you can get your wife to do the same thing, letting you know that she read the same number at the end of it, as you did. Perhaps you'll pull out a series of peer reviewed articles on biology, and take it to Francis Collins and he'll agree with the conclusions drawn by them. Yet you'll both have distinctly different views about reality.

You're under the fiction that whatever scientific studies, and writing you've read through the last few years of your adult life, are the foundations of your view of the world. When it really your life and history are. Your atheism less driven by some observed facts of yours, and more so by your longing to identify with some group of people, and the disgust and outrage you feel towards religious identities. It's not coincidence that it wasn't science that ushered the era of the new atheists, but 9/11.

All that a man can see in your view of reality as whole, is you. A large projection of yourself in a world you try to draw for everyone else. Why is that so? Because you can only draw reality from those fragments of your mental images, all colored in and created by your life, and your life exclusively.

Quote:You have a warped view of reality filtered through the belief in supernature and supernatural beings.

Mines is an honest one, yours is the warped one. You probably won't figure that out, since you're surrounded by folks who will just confirm your warped and confused perception of the truth. Because that myth is one they all depend on as well.

Fuck you're stupid. Facepalm

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-09-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 12:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I utilise a critical mind.

Is that a fact or an opinion? If we did a neurological scan of your brain, would we be able to confirm that your in some critical contemplative state, distinguishable from states in which you’re not? If we show no discernible neurological distinctions, would you give up this belief?

Perhaps there is some state you associate with that feeling that arises in you when you believe you’re thinking critically. When you read a series of propositions that play the chords of this state just right, you accept those propositions as true.

If all mental states reduce to physical states, and external world as well, and if any changes in mental state, like a shift from one thought to the other, are dictated by physical forces, what would that mean here? For one there’s no free thought, no movement in your mental images that are not a product of physical forces acting on the neurochemistry of your brain. So we can’t appeal to a freedom of mental movements by immaterial forces. Secondly physical forces don’t translate to critical thinking either.


So what would be an appropriate non-dualistic analogy? Music would be adequate. When you say you utilize critical thinking, as distinct from the everyday thought process of everyday people, you’re an essence describing some genre of music you like, perhaps a certain form of jazz. And whenever a string of propositions play those jazzy notes in ways soothing to your ears, you say yes that note is true. You’re just looking for a ring of truth. To have it some other way is to betray your own epistemologically, and would requires beliefs in immaterial forces to work, that even I don’t believe in that.

Quote:What are you trying to get at Tomasia, you've lost me entirely.
Are you trying to say my critical approach to accepting what is knowledge is no different to your choice to believe in the magic of Jesus based on faith and belief?


I’m pointing out that your beliefs in a critical approach, that you’re able to force the brain to bend in compliance to, is just good all fashioned myth making. You acquired these ideas, about rational thinking, about critical thinking, from a language seeped in a dualistic imagination, accepting these concepts as given without ever wondering as to what grounds them now. You speak of overriding your own natural dispositions, you genetically incline way of thinking, by putting on some magical helmet called “critical thinking” to do so.

You look at everyone else, who doesn’t share your view, that doesn’t subscribe to you own supposed frame of mind, and imagine their all confused, without ever being able to hover yourself and notice your own confusion. To see you own fractured and distorted view of reality. You’re not a testament to clear thinking, you’re a testament of the sort of confusion that plagues all of humanity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 01:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 12:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I utilise a critical mind.

Is that a fact or an opinion? If we did a neurological scan of your brain, would we be able to confirm that your in some critical contemplative state, distinguishable from states in which you’re not? If we show no discernible neurological distinctions, would you give up this belief?

You still don't seem to understand what the word "rational" means, or how rationality is determined. This is despite your error being pointed out dozens of times over multiple threads.

This is really not complicated.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-09-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 01:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Fuck you're stupid. Facepalm

And you're just a disgruntled son of bitch, but hey we manage.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:05 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 01:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is that a fact or an opinion? If we did a neurological scan of your brain, would we be able to confirm that your in some critical contemplative state, distinguishable from states in which you’re not? If we show no discernible neurological distinctions, would you give up this belief?

You still don't seem to understand what the word "rational" means, or how rationality is determined. This is despite your error being pointed out dozens of times over multiple threads.

This is really not complicated.

You already agreed to this:

"All mental properties are reducible to physical properties, that are controlled by physical forces. These physical forces acting upon the brain, control and dictate what we believe, see, and think, as well as everything else about us. We’re just puppets controlled by it’s strings.

An entirely coherent and accurate argument can be stated, in a series of propositions, but unless those propositions can create a series of physical forces to change your mind, you won’t."


When you stated: "Yes I agree"

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You already agreed to this:

"All mental properties are reducible to physical properties, that are controlled by physical forces. These physical forces acting upon the brain, control and dictate what we believe, see, and think, as well as everything else about us. We’re just puppets controlled by it’s strings.

An entirely coherent and accurate argument can be stated, in a series of propositions, but unless those propositions can create a series of physical forces to change your mind, you won’t."


When you stated: "Yes I agree"

Yes, and this changes precisely nothing.

You don't understand what the term "rational" means or how the rationality of a given statement is determined.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-09-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:13 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You don't understand what the term "rational" means or how the rationality of a given statement is determined.

Sure, I have some idea of what the word means to you, something about logical calculus right?

But unless you can reconcile what's stated in our agreement, with any beliefs about rational thinking, than it's not really relevant.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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