Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
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28-09-2015, 02:22 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 01:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 12:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I utilise a critical mind.
Is that a fact or an opinion? If we did a neurological scan of your brain, would we be able to confirm that your in some critical contemplative state, distinguishable from states in which you’re not? If we show no discernible neurological distinctions, would you give up this belief?
The brain is too complex for us to analise in such a way. We are incapable of plotting the next move from information taken from a scan.

To assess whether I use a critical mind one has to look at the methodology that I implement.
On mundain things with little consequences I don't use much critical thought. e.g. if a person tells me that they went to the beach on the week-end I don't insist that they prove it to me.
If however, I get a phone call from a person telling me they are from Microsoft and have noticed some security issues with my computer and want to help me adjust the security settings on my computer to fix the issue then I ask how they know my phone number given that I have no contractual arrangement with them, or how they have the time to do free desktop support for the hundreds of millions of Windows users?
If a person tells me that they know of a guy that died and then got better, I'd tell them that I too watched Crank 2 and thought although it was total BS, it was a fun way to waste some spare time.

I'm sure your methodology would be the same except for those cases where people talk about Jesus. If they tell you Jesus cured a man by touching him then you would believe it, if they tell you that Jesus rose from the dead then you would believe it. You don't need proof and in fact you think you will be rewarded for your faith rather than your critical insistence on evidence.
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"
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28-09-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure, I have some idea of what the word means to you, something about logical calculus right?

It means "in accordance with the rules of logic", yes. And these can be formally stated as the rules of propositional calculus.

(28-09-2015 02:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But unless you can reconcile what's stated in our agreement, with any beliefs about rational thinking, than it's not really relevant.

You have stated nothing that requires reconciliation.

You really seem to have trouble formulating coherent ideas.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-09-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:23 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It means "in accordance with the rules of logic", yes. And these can be formally stated as the rules of propositional calculus.

Are these rules reducible to physical forces? Are they reducible to the neurochemistry of the brain? If not, they don't exist, anymore so than spiderman does. They're just fictions, stories we tell ourselves.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are these rules reducible to physical forces? Are they reducible to the neurochemistry of the brain?

In the same sense that any thought is, yes. Which is to say, in the most useless sense possible.

You really, really don't seem to grasp this whole "emergent behaviors" idea.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-09-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The brain is too complex for us to analise in such a way. We are incapable of plotting the next move from information taken from a scan.

To assess whether I use a critical mind one has to look at the methodology that I implement.

That's like believing you can program a methodology into your brain, that dictates how it process and computes information, by sheer will. All fiction.

Is this methodology one of your own creation? Or one that's been predefined by others? Does it take advantage of both conscious and unconscious computations of your brain?

You belief in your critical thinking, is violation of the methodology you've used to reject morality in all it's form. The only reason you seem not to abandon this myth, is because this one matters to you.

Quote:If however, I get a phone call from a person telling me they are from Microsoft and have noticed some security issues with my computer and want to help me adjust the security settings on my computer to fix the issue then I ask how they know my phone number given that I have no contractual arrangement with them, or how they have the time to do free desktop support for the hundreds of millions of Windows users?

Is that the same an old lady does, when a black guy enters the elevator? She's more aware of her purse, and clutches it more tightly just in case. And the same sort of process that follows whenever someone thinks something is fishy. The same scent that arise for me when you speak of utilizing critical thinking?

Quote:I'm sure your methodology would be the same except for those cases where people talk about Jesus. If they tell you Jesus cured a man by touching him then you would believe it, if they tell you that Jesus rose from the dead then you would believe it. You don't need proof and in fact you think you will be rewarded for your faith rather than your critical insistence on evidence.
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"

My methodology is entirely different than yours. When wondering about the accuracy of my worldview, I don't close myself to those who subscribe to it, but to those that don't. I inquire about their own pictures of the world. If my picture of the world is correct, than some traces of it, some distorted perceptions of it, incomplete portraits of it should be found in other people's pictures as well, both in the past and in the present. If we're all just blind men trying to contemplate the elephant in front of us. Some trace of it should be present in all of our blind interpretation of it. That's how I look it. I what picture to acquire depth, not simplicity,

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 03:18 PM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 01:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Fuck you're stupid. Facepalm

And you're just a disgruntled son of bitch, but hey we manage.

Disgruntled? No. I'm just not particularly fond of dishonest individuals or morons. You check off both boxes Drinking Beverage

You're not replying with any substance whatsoever. You reply the same thing over and over and over. Brains think. Thinking brains produce subjective interpretations of reality. No. Fucking. Shit.

The universe exists independent of your peon brain. I think you've just proven the universe exists independent of any consciousness. Glad you've turned over a new leaf away from the stupidity of theism. (Unless you're too stupid to realize the implications of what is being said)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-09-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:46 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 02:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are these rules reducible to physical forces? Are they reducible to the neurochemistry of the brain?

In the same sense that any thought is, yes. Which is to say, in the most useless sense possible.

So logical thinking is already a feature of our biology disposed form of thinking? Our neurochemical makeup is already programmed for logical thinking? Is it a feature of both conscious and subconscious computations of the brain? Is it a feature of only human animals, or other animals as well?

Quote:You really, really don't seem to grasp this whole "emergent behaviors" idea.

You put too much importance in it. I only like thinking in reducible terms here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-09-2015, 03:24 PM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 02:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The brain is too complex for us to analise in such a way. We are incapable of plotting the next move from information taken from a scan.

To assess whether I use a critical mind one has to look at the methodology that I implement.

That's like believing you can program a methodology into your brain, that dictates how it process and computes information, by sheer will. All fiction.

Is this methodology one of your own creation? Or one that's been predefined by others? Does it take advantage of both conscious and unconscious computations of your brain?

You belief in your critical thinking, is violation of the methodology you've used to reject morality in all it's form. The only reason you seem not to abandon this myth, is because this one matters to you.

Quote:If however, I get a phone call from a person telling me they are from Microsoft and have noticed some security issues with my computer and want to help me adjust the security settings on my computer to fix the issue then I ask how they know my phone number given that I have no contractual arrangement with them, or how they have the time to do free desktop support for the hundreds of millions of Windows users?

Is that the same an old lady does, when a black guy enters the elevator? She's more aware of her purse, and clutches it more tightly just in case. And the same sort of process that follows whenever someone thinks something is fishy. The same scent that arise for me when you speak of utilizing critical thinking?

Quote:I'm sure your methodology would be the same except for those cases where people talk about Jesus. If they tell you Jesus cured a man by touching him then you would believe it, if they tell you that Jesus rose from the dead then you would believe it. You don't need proof and in fact you think you will be rewarded for your faith rather than your critical insistence on evidence.
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"

My methodology is entirely different than yours. When wondering about the accuracy of my worldview, I don't close myself to those who subscribe to it, but to those that don't. I inquire about their own pictures of the world. If my picture of the world is correct, than some traces of it, some distorted perceptions of it, incomplete portraits of it should be found in other people's pictures as well, both in the past and in the present. If we're all just blind men trying to contemplate the elephant in front of us. Some trace of it should be present in all of our blind interpretation of it. That's how I look it. I what picture to acquire depth, not simplicity,

More bullshit lying. You don't "When wondering about the accuracy of my worldview, I don't close myself to those who subscribe to it, but to those that don't." <- do that at all. You certainly claim to, but all you do is ignore what is being said to you while you try to preach your theistic bullshit. (Hence your inherent dishonesty)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-09-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 03:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So logical thinking is already a feature of our biology disposed form of thinking? Our neurochemical makeup is already programmed for logical thinking?

No more so than mathematics.

(28-09-2015 03:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:You really, really don't seem to grasp this whole "emergent behaviors" idea.

You put too much importance in it. I only like thinking in reducible terms here.

No, you like trying to equivocate between "reductive" and "can be eliminated from the equation haphazardly without changing anything".

An economic system is entirely physical. There is nothing immaterial about it. But if you try to reduce the system as sloppily as you are, down to atoms and chemical reactions, you end up with a useless model which tells you nothing.

By trying to reduce rationality to neurochemical reactions is to completely fail to understand the principles in play.

Your "terms" are incoherent and worthless.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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28-09-2015, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2015 04:49 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 02:23 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It means "in accordance with the rules of logic", yes. And these can be formally stated as the rules of propositional calculus.

Are you explaining our predisposed thought process, like if we were to observe the way most people think and form their view of reality, would we show that they follow the rules of propositional calculus in the everyday thought process? Or is it some acquired way of thinking, perhaps through learning what the rules of propositional calculus are? That we can train our minds to think according to these rules? Does it require something analogous to reprograming my mind to think this way?

Perhaps next time I'm in a heated argument with my wife, we can refer to logical calculus to figure out whose to blame for the fight.

Quote:An economic system is entirely physical. There is nothing immaterial about it. But if you try to reduce the system as sloppily as you are, down to atoms and chemical reactions, you end up with a useless model which tells you nothing.

Economic systems, are modeled off of human behavior. Economist are not in the business of getting consumers to think differently, than they're in the business of creating models that corresponds to their predisposed behavior. Of course the predicative capacities of the model are rarely ever as good as they hoped. And fail more routinely than they succeed.

Quote:By trying to reduce rationality to neurochemical reactions is to completely fail to understand the principles in play.

It would have to be reducible. The principles in play would have to be at play in our neurochemistry. Or you'd just be speaking of non-sense.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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