Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
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28-09-2015, 07:40 PM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 07:22 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 07:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In contrast to the set of silly memes:

"We need to make a distinction between the claim that the world is out there and the claim that truth is out there. To say that the world is out there, that it is not our creation, is to say, with common sense, that most things in space and time are the effects of causes which do not include human mental states.To say that truth is not out there is simply to say that where there are no sentences there is no truth, that sentences are elements of human languages,and that human Languages are human creations.
Truth cannot be out there - cannot exist independently of the human mind - because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there. The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not. Only descriptions of the world can be true or false. The world on its own - unaided by the describing activities of human beings - cannot.

The suggestion that truth, as well as the world, is out there is a legacy of an age in which the world was seen as the creation of a being who had a language of his own. If we cease to attempt to make sense of the idea of such a nonhuman language, we shall not be tempted to confuse the platitude that the world may cause us to be justified in believing a sentence true with the claim that the world splits itself up, on its own initiative, into sentence-shaped chunks called "facts." But if one clings to the notion of self-subsistent facts, it is easy to start capitalizing the word "truth" and treating it as something identical either with God or with the world as God's project. Then one will say, for example, that Truth is great, and will prevail."

-Rorty, Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity.

That's wonderful.

Do you have an actual point yet?

I'd wager the answer is "no honest one"

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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28-09-2015, 10:45 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 12:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That's like believing you can program a methodology into your brain, that dictates how it process and computes information, by sheer will. All fiction.
If you think of my brain like a learning computer, it has an algorithm which it runs, it has sensors to retrieve input from the outside world. It has hardware from which everything runs.
The outside world is detected by the sensors, the information processed and stored in memory, also stored as modifications to the algorithm. Now the program runs differently, it adapts.
But there is no dualism (certainly nothing transcendent), it all comes down to bits and bites and transistors on substrates.
My brain is a machine, I am a result of this adaptive machine. It's highly complex and cannot be fully described by me, but it is still all material and only due to the fundamental forces of nature, nothing supernatural here.
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29-09-2015, 06:28 AM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2015 07:07 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(28-09-2015 10:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 12:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That's like believing you can program a methodology into your brain, that dictates how it process and computes information, by sheer will. All fiction.
If you think of my brain like a learning computer, it has an algorithm which it runs, it has sensors to retrieve input from the outside world. It has hardware from which everything runs.
The outside world is detected by the sensors, the information processed and stored in memory, also stored as modifications to the algorithm. Now the program runs differently, it adapts.
But there is no dualism (certainly nothing transcendent), it all comes down to bits and bites and transistors on substrates.
My brain is a machine, I am a result of this adaptive machine. It's highly complex and cannot be fully described by me, but it is still all material and only due to the fundamental forces of nature, nothing supernatural here.

You have beliefs about your own brain, such when you say you “utilize critical thinking”, the validity of which is in question here. The brain has a variety of computational capacities, which we might analogously refer to as algorithms, but not precisely, but that’s fine. These computational features of our brain exist to take advantage of both our conscious and unconscious inputs. But the interest of these computational features of the brain, are not to discern the nature of reality, to uncover truths, but rather for the sake of navigation, to get us to move from point A to point B, and take shortcuts when needed. Unlike what we might say of a complex AI, the human brain also takes in a variety of emotional inputs, and uses these emotions as well. It’s why when you pick up that call from a tech supposedly from Microsoft, your gut tells you something is fishy about it. Without that, you might have just unwittingly gave out your private information to someone who was going to take advantage of it.

When you see your mother in person, and if I asked you why do you believe that’s your mother. You might appeal to your supposed conscious reasoning abilities, that she was the one that was with you when were younger, who took care of you, that you know her voice, and personality etc… You might say to yourself that you know this is your mother based on sound rational deliberations. But as injuries, like those produce Capgras delusion show, that absent of an automatic emotional arousal to familiar faces, you might agree that she looks and sounds like your mother, but you’d be under the impression that she’s an imposter.

But what does it mean when you speak of yourself as utilizing critical thinking? Are you referring to our brain's predisposed computational abilities? That doesn’t seem to be the case. All held beliefs true and false, are a product of the brains computations. Are you speaking of some sort of harnessed computational abilities in regards to conscious inputs, that you’re able to use at will when need be?

Are you speaking of some sort of reprogramming, reconfiguring of these algorithms? A sort of fine tuning, that you achieve by training your brain to follow some set of rules, you learned about later on? Sort of like how we might get a dog to sit, we can train our brain to think in ways beyond it’s predispositions?

You don’t need to appeal to some form of dualism to speak of the way our functioning brains operate and compute an external reality they have to navigate, you likely will have to, to preserve your cherished beliefs in rational thinking, and etc. Those beliefs in our western views are built on dualistic perspectives of the mind. Either that or you’ll have to abandon those belief all together, like you did morality. In fact if you were consistent with the methodology here, both beliefs would have died with the same sword.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-09-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But what does it mean when you speak of yourself as utilizing critical thinking?

Reasoning in accordance with the laws of logic.

This is not complicated.

Tell me: when you look at an economic system, are you of the opinion that profit does not exist?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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29-09-2015, 11:01 AM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2015 11:06 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 10:27 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Tell me: when you look at an economic system, are you of the opinion that profit does not exist?

Sure, in the sense that when I buy something for 50 cents and sell it for a 1$, I made 50 cent profit.

Quote:
(29-09-2015 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But what does it mean when you speak of yourself as utilizing critical thinking?

Reasoning in accordance with the laws of logic.

Is reasoning according to the laws of logic a means of uncovering, what's true, or just a means of framing whether or not the propositional reasons a person gives, are consistent with the epistemological framework he holds? Perhaps we could program a computer AI brain, to reason according to a set of rules, we refer to as the laws of logic. In this case these rules are entirely reducible to the hardware, are features of his predisposed computational capacities.

Are the rules of logic analogous in this sense, to the rules already governing our predisposed computational capacities of our brain? Is this our predisposed means of reasoning? Or they an acquired means of reasoning, one that we in essence have to learn, and train our brains, and bend them in compliance to, to reason accordingly to these rules?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-09-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure, in the sense that when I buy something for 50 cents and sell it for a 1$, I made 50 cent profit.

Is this profit reducible to chemical impulses in your brain?

(29-09-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is reasoning according to the laws of logic a means of uncovering, what's true, or just a means of framing whether or not the propositional reasons a person gives, are consistent with the epistemological framework he holds?

Category error.

Rationality is the former; determining whether or not a thought is rational is the latter.

(29-09-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps we could program a computer AI brain, to reason according to a set of rules, we refer to as the laws of logic. In this case these rules are entirely reducible to the hardware, are features of his predisposed computational capacities.

Are the rules of logic analogous in this sense, to the rules already governing our predisposed computational capacities of our brain? Is this our predisposed means of reasoning? Or they an acquired means of reasoning, one that we in essence have to learn, and train our brains, and bend them in compliance to, to reason accordingly to these rules?

Incoherent and irrelevant.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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29-09-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 11:15 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure, in the sense that when I buy something for 50 cents and sell it for a 1$, I made 50 cent profit.

Is this profit reducible to chemical impulses in your brain?

The calculation of profit in my head? Sure they are. Just like the computations of a calculator are reducible to it’s hardware.

As far as the agreed upon values attached to a certain piece or papers and and metals, and the value of the items in negotiation, those are more or less agreed upon political decisions.


Quote:
(29-09-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is reasoning according to the laws of logic a means of uncovering, what's true, or just a means of framing whether or not the propositional reasons a person gives, are consistent with the epistemological framework he holds?

Category error.

Rationality is the former; determining whether or not a thought is rational is the latter.

Okay, rationality is a reasoning according to the laws of logic. And we determine if a thought is rational, if it’s consistent with a persons epistemological framework?

Quote:
(29-09-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps we could program a computer AI brain, to reason according to a set of rules, we refer to as the laws of logic. In this case these rules are entirely reducible to the hardware, are features of his predisposed computational capacities.

Are the rules of logic analogous in this sense, to the rules already governing our predisposed computational capacities of our brain? Is this our predisposed means of reasoning? Or they an acquired means of reasoning, one that we in essence have to learn, and train our brains, and bend them in compliance to, to reason accordingly to these rules?

Incoherent and irrelevant.

Let’s work with your clarified definitions.

Thinking rationally, means to reason according to the laws of logic, as per your previous clarification. We can conceive of a computer that thinks rationally, meaning that it follows the rules of logic. In this case the rules, are reducible to the hardware.

When it comes to human thinking, is it a part of our biological disposition to think rationally, according to the laws of logic? Is it our predisposed means of reasoning? In terms of the computer brain the rules are already a feature of it’s original programming. But what is it in regards to the human brain? Analogous to reprogramming? Perhaps by learning, and training our brains to think along the lines of these rules, as a sort of habit?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-09-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
If you're ever planning on getting anywhere with this shit, Tomasia, could you hurry up?

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29-09-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 01:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If you're ever planning on getting anywhere with this shit, Tomasia, could you hurry up?

Speaking the truth.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-09-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
"Thinking rationally, means to reason according to the laws of logic, as per your previous clarification. We can conceive of a computer that thinks rationally, meaning that it follows the rules of logic. In this case the rules, are reducible to the hardware."

No. The rules in a computer simulation are reducible to the SOFTWARE.

The hardware is the physical mechanism on which the software runs.


"When it comes to human thinking, is it a part of our biological disposition to think rationally, according to the laws of logic?"

Why reduce it to only humans? Thinking is an adaptation for survival. Thinking is a form of reaction to stimulus, which is the basic underlying mechanism behind behavior.


"Is it our predisposed means of reasoning?"

Are you seriously asking if our brains are our predisposed means of "reasoning?" Yes...yes they are.

"In terms of the computer brain the rules are already a feature of it’s original programming. But what is it in regards to the human brain?"

Of the what? Computers don't have brains. Computers SIMULATE brains. Not the other way around.

"Perhaps by learning, and training our brains to think along the lines of these rules, as a sort of habit?"

Your brain is an organ for reaction to stimulus and thought processing. It is no more a habit for your brain to think (well, in your case that seems to be unimportant) than it is for your heart to pump blood.



None of what you are saying makes any fucking sense. Even your questions display an ineptitude to communicate a coherent chain of thought.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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