Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-09-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(30-09-2015 06:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Recognition of what these symbols on paper mean, the computation of those symbols, etc...are all reducible to the hardware. And in this case not the pencil and paper, but the brain doing these computations.

... But brain/computer which simply knows how to interpret symbols can only implement algorithm if given list of symbols. Sure, hardware is required to carry out algorithm, but algorithm is not dependent on hardware, nor is hardware *all* that is required.

What is your point anyway?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
30-09-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 12:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The calculation of profit in my head? Sure they are. Just like the computations of a calculator are reducible to it’s hardware.

As far as the agreed upon values attached to a certain piece or papers and and metals, and the value of the items in negotiation, those are more or less agreed upon political decisions.

Not an answer to the question asked.

Is this reducible to chemical impulses in your brain?

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by chemical impulses, since that’s not I term I used previously. But the calculation of profit in my head, is reducible to neurochemistry of my brain.

Quote:
(29-09-2015 12:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Okay, rationality is a reasoning according to the laws of logic. And we determine if a thought is rational, if it’s consistent with a persons epistemological framework?

No. You determine if a thought is rational by comparing it to the laws of rationality. It doesn't matter what your personal epistemology of choice is.

Rationality doesn’t dictate an epistemology. At best we’d be looking for thought consistent with the one an individual person holds. So in your view a thought process can’t be attuned or trained in a way to follow these laws of rationality? Let’s say we learn all these rules, memorizing them, and making it a habit to think accordingly to them, isn’t that a possibility?

A basketball player doesn’t take the rules of the game to heart, and play along in parameters of those rules, it can become a habitual part of his style and movement, without ever having to double check the rule book to insure that he has been doing so.

Couldn’t this be the same in regards to the laws of rationality?

And the laws of rationality a fixed set of rules, or ones we can add to? Do they need approval by a congressional committee before another rule can be added?

Quote:
(29-09-2015 12:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Thinking rationally, means to reason according to the laws of logic, as per your previous clarification. We can conceive of a computer that thinks rationally, meaning that it follows the rules of logic. In this case the rules, are reducible to the hardware.

No. They are reducible to the software.

You do not understand computers.

What is this like a software/hardware property dualism? Where the software is irreducible?

You already know that’s it not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2015, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2015 06:57 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(30-09-2015 06:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 06:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Recognition of what these symbols on paper mean, the computation of those symbols, etc...are all reducible to the hardware. And in this case not the pencil and paper, but the brain doing these computations.

... But brain/computer which simply knows how to interpret symbols can only implement algorithm if given list of symbols. Sure, hardware is required to carry out algorithm, but algorithm is not dependent on hardware, nor is hardware *all* that is required.

What is your point anyway?

Well programming the hardwire would also be required. You would program it with an recognition of what any particular symbol, and program it with the rules, and computational capacities to make sense of any string of these symbols. While you can say we're programming the software here, but this is a reducible process, which corresponds in it's entirety to reconfiguring some aspect of the hardware, moving around physical parts. We can even reprogram it here, like OS updates, crafting and fine tuning it's capacities.

The analogy to the mind is, the mind comes preconfigured by it's genetics, and countless years of evolution. The purpose of which were not for the sake of recognizing reality, but navigating through it, they come preconfigured with all sorts of shortcuts, to get from point A to point B, with as little effort as needed. The computational capacities of our brain are both conscious and unconscious. And compute data from a variety of sensory inputs.

When some folks speak of themselves as utilizing critical thinking, thinking rationally, they tend not to be describing our predisposed thought process, but a particularly harnessed and fine tuned one they've acquired, in some ways by reprograming their brains. The brain that thinks fuzzy on it's own, is being reprogrammed by that same fuzzy brain, and imagines that he now thinks and sees clearly. All fiction of course, but not one these fuzzy brains can recognize.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
If I grant your point which I consider very much speculative, then what?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
"Well programming the hardwire would also be required. You would program it with an recognition of what any particular symbol, and program it with the rules, and computational capacities to make sense of any string of these symbols. While you can say we're programming the software here, but this is a reducible process, which corresponds in it's entirety to reconfiguring some aspect of the hardware, moving around physical parts."

Computers aren't brains, they simulate brains. Programming a computer to perform a function, is not equivalent to a brain learning to think...at all. Facepalm

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
30-09-2015, 07:00 AM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
No one "programs" a brain.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(29-09-2015 02:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That hard drive is a storage device that when used in conjunction with the other components of a computer, stores the information necessary to be able to operate the program "microsoft word." That hard drive contains information, not the working program.

I’m not sure why you think you’ve said something, by just rephrasing what I already said: "If I opened up a computer and asked where Microsoft word is, you’ll likely point to the harddrive. And perhaps point to other areas of hardware that allow the program to operate and function, like the ram and processor, and electrical connections. The point being the software is not irreducible, just like the mind is not irreducible.

The only thing you’ve seemed to have added here, is “working”. But when you say the harddrive in conjunction with the other components, these other components are just other physical components, other parts of the computers hardware.

Quote:A brain is an organ where reaction to stimulus is processed. A hard drive mimics the physical brain's storage ability.

Nothing to argue with here.

Quote:Or in your case, be brainwashed. "Critical thinking" and "rational thinking" are observations and conclusions and beliefs that are congruent with reality and it is what those of us do when confronted with reality if we aren't brainwashed by supernatural and superstitious BS…..I.E., critical and rational thinking are non-emotional means of processing information that are in-line with independently verifiable, testable, and consistent information and do NOT rely upon supernature or supernatural superstitions.

So in a way rational and critical thinking is part of our predisposition. But brainwashed religious and supernatural beliefs obstruct this natural process. I guess the analogy here would be like bloatware, taking advantage of the valuable computational resources of a computer, causing it to slow down, and function improperly.

There’s a trajectory, and the resources available for anyone to recognize reality for what it truly is, which is the one you and others here hold. It might have taken us about 100,000 years to get here, but we finally did. But this trajectory is impeded and stalled by religious and supernatural brainwashing.

And not only is the conclusion you drawn about reality, the accurate and true one, but it’s also one of value as well right? That the more and more people are able to recognize this, the further humanity and civilization can progress as a whole. It’s not a meaningless truth, but a meaningful one in this regard, caring with it some moral impetus?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2015, 07:54 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
I have no idea WTF you are trying to say, Tommy. So software requires hardware in order to function? So... are you gonna make a point?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
30-09-2015, 08:26 AM
Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(30-09-2015 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 02:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That hard drive is a storage device that when used in conjunction with the other components of a computer, stores the information necessary to be able to operate the program "microsoft word." That hard drive contains information, not the working program.

I’m not sure why you think you’ve said something, by just rephrasing what I already said: "If I opened up a computer and asked where Microsoft word is, you’ll likely point to the harddrive. And perhaps point to other areas of hardware that allow the program to operate and function, like the ram and processor, and electrical connections. The point being the software is not irreducible, just like the mind is not irreducible.

The only thing you’ve seemed to have added here, is “working”. But when you say the harddrive in conjunction with the other components, these other components are just other physical components, other parts of the computers hardware.

Quote:A brain is an organ where reaction to stimulus is processed. A hard drive mimics the physical brain's storage ability.

Nothing to argue with here.

Quote:Or in your case, be brainwashed. "Critical thinking" and "rational thinking" are observations and conclusions and beliefs that are congruent with reality and it is what those of us do when confronted with reality if we aren't brainwashed by supernatural and superstitious BS…..I.E., critical and rational thinking are non-emotional means of processing information that are in-line with independently verifiable, testable, and consistent information and do NOT rely upon supernature or supernatural superstitions.

So in a way rational and critical thinking is part of our predisposition. But brainwashed religious and supernatural beliefs obstruct this natural process. I guess the analogy here would be like bloatware, taking advantage of the valuable computational resources of a computer, causing it to slow down, and function improperly.

There’s a trajectory, and the resources available for anyone to recognize reality for what it truly is, which is the one you and others here hold. It might have taken us about 100,000 years to get here, but we finally did. But this trajectory is impeded and stalled by religious and supernatural brainwashing.

And not only is the conclusion you drawn about reality, the accurate and true one, but it’s also one of value as well right? That the more and more people are able to recognize this, the further humanity and civilization can progress as a whole. It’s not a meaningless truth, but a meaningful one in this regard, caring with it some moral impetus?

Your "analogies" are all over the place and nonsensical. What is your point? What profound "truth" do you think you're expressing?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Chemicals in the Brain and Truth.
(30-09-2015 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your "analogies" are all over the place and nonsensical. What is your point? What profound "truth" do you think you're expressing?

I'm not expressing any profound truth, just an obvious one. Connecting the dots of your own narrative.

Cleary you think there are operative difference between religious and non-religious minds, between religious and atheists brain such as yours. Those who hold religious or supernatural beliefs are brainwashed. While those that are not would be atheists. You already drew a distinction between how you believe your brain operates, and how a religious persons does. While you hold these beliefs as accurate, they've never really constructed beyond any superficial level. That's my interest, that if it were true what would it mean.

If something like this belief of yours is true, what is it saying about reality and our brains in general? Would it imply that non-brainwashed brains are receptive to acknowledging reality as it truly is, particularly given the resources and knowledge we have currently? That this trajectory is to some degree guaranteed if it weren't for religious brainwashing?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: