Chi
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02-02-2017, 08:01 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 08:04 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 07:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 07:42 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The effect is real, but it is not dependent on the perceived medicine (or whatever else is being tested) being real. That's why I view it as a suitable analogy to chi. Believing in chi can in fact guide one to performing advanced feats or reaching deep levels of meditation whether chi actually exists or not.

And you have evidence that the effect is achieved *without* the "perceived" cause ?

There's plenty of evidence that one's physical performance can be improved through a change in their state of mind, whether it's listening to heavy metal before hitting the weights or imagining chi flowing through their body before trying to smash a brick. These same advantages can be obtained through more scientifically valid means. But sometimes a placebo is more convenient.

I don't feel inclined to start digging up resources, though. My kids just went to bed and I'm sitting on the toilet trying to meditate my shit out. When I'm finished, I don't really care enough about the subject to provide more than my opinion and personal observations.

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02-02-2017, 08:32 PM
RE: Chi
The point is, the placebo effect can be real, and it can be a positive effect. If it really *is* "a" placebo effect, and it provides some real positive effect, it's a "placebo" due to (from) something specific. People don't get the effect from nothing. Whatever that is, the effect it has on the people who get the effect is real and specific and positive.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-02-2017, 08:51 PM
RE: Chi
I mentioned earlier that I'd give a more detailed response after the kids were asleep and my evening chores were finished and I was done taking my shit. Okay not those exact words.

I think it's along the same lines as the visualization techniques athletes often use to improve performance, but going a step further and including perhaps a bit of the supernatural. For someone who believes in chi, it might be imagining this powerful force running through their body. I've imagined all sorts of other crazy shit to give myself that little extra push, even things I knew to be false at the time. For example... During mountain warfare school, we'd have to throw 60 to 80 pounds on our backs and hike 4 or 5 miles up to the mountain through rough terrain in the snow (I'm pretty sure there were yetis out there too Tongue) to the training sight every morning before the real fun even began, then back down after it was all over. I don't even know how to describe the level of exhaustion you start to experience doing that every day. The blisters on my feet were cringe worthy and I ended up throwing away a nice pair of boots and a couple pairs of socks because I couldn't get the blood out. I got into the habit imagining myself as a cyborg with no other option but to follow my programming and continue putting one foot after the other as if I had no choice in the matter while pushing the pain aside because, as a cyborg, I wouldn't have the pain. Sure, it was bullshit, but it allowed me to dig much deeper into myself than I would have otherwise been able to and got me through when people in better shape than myself were giving up and dropping out of the course.

When I work out, I usually go with stuff like Five Finger Death Punch to get me into the right mood. I know visualizing myself as angry and violent (and listening to the appropriate music) doesn't physically alter my maximal strength or my muscular endurance, but being in that emotional state accomplishes that goal nonetheless.

I think chi works based on much the same concept. You view yourself as something more than a flesh and blood human, and it helps you obtain whatever psychological edge it is that you need to punch harder, clear your mind for deeper meditation, etc.

That's my totally unscientific take on it, anyway.

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02-02-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 08:51 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I mentioned earlier that I'd give a more detailed response after the kids were asleep and my evening chores were finished and I was done taking my shit. Okay not those exact words.

I think it's along the same lines as the visualization techniques athletes often use to improve performance, but going a step further and including perhaps a bit of the supernatural. For someone who believes in chi, it might be imagining this powerful force running through their body. I've imagined all sorts of other crazy shit to give myself that little extra push, even things I knew to be false at the time. For example... During mountain warfare school, we'd have to throw 60 to 80 pounds on our backs and hike 4 or 5 miles up to the mountain through rough terrain in the snow (I'm pretty sure there were yetis out there too Tongue) to the training sight every morning before the real fun even began, then back down after it was all over. I don't even know how to describe the level of exhaustion you start to experience doing that every day. The blisters on my feet were cringe worthy and I ended up throwing away a nice pair of boots and a couple pairs of socks because I couldn't get the blood out. I got into the habit imagining myself as a cyborg with no other option but to follow my programming and continue putting one foot after the other as if I had no choice in the matter while pushing the pain aside because, as a cyborg, I wouldn't have the pain. Sure, it was bullshit, but it allowed me to dig much deeper into myself than I would have otherwise been able to and got me through when people in better shape than myself were giving up and dropping out of the course.

When I work out, I usually go with stuff like Five Finger Death Punch to get me into the right mood. I know visualizing myself as angry and violent (and listening to the appropriate music) doesn't physically alter my maximal strength or my muscular endurance, but being in that emotional state accomplishes that goal nonetheless.

I think chi works based on much the same concept. You view yourself as something more than a flesh and blood human, and it helps you obtain whatever psychological edge it is that you need to punch harder, clear your mind for deeper meditation, etc.

That's my totally unscientific take on it, anyway.

I understand that. I play mind games too when I’m pushing my body to do things it doesn’t want to do.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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02-02-2017, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 09:17 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 08:51 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I mentioned earlier that I'd give a more detailed response after the kids were asleep and my evening chores were finished and I was done taking my shit. Okay not those exact words.

I think it's along the same lines as the visualization techniques athletes often use to improve performance, but going a step further and including perhaps a bit of the supernatural. For someone who believes in chi, it might be imagining this powerful force running through their body. I've imagined all sorts of other crazy shit to give myself that little extra push, even things I knew to be false at the time. For example... During mountain warfare school, we'd have to throw 60 to 80 pounds on our backs and hike 4 or 5 miles up to the mountain through rough terrain in the snow (I'm pretty sure there were yetis out there too Tongue) to the training sight every morning before the real fun even began, then back down after it was all over. I don't even know how to describe the level of exhaustion you start to experience doing that every day. The blisters on my feet were cringe worthy and I ended up throwing away a nice pair of boots and a couple pairs of socks because I couldn't get the blood out. I got into the habit imagining myself as a cyborg with no other option but to follow my programming and continue putting one foot after the other as if I had no choice in the matter while pushing the pain aside because, as a cyborg, I wouldn't have the pain. Sure, it was bullshit, but it allowed me to dig much deeper into myself than I would have otherwise been able to and got me through when people in better shape than myself were giving up and dropping out of the course.

When I work out, I usually go with stuff like Five Finger Death Punch to get me into the right mood. I know visualizing myself as angry and violent (and listening to the appropriate music) doesn't physically alter my maximal strength or my muscular endurance, but being in that emotional state accomplishes that goal nonetheless.

I think chi works based on much the same concept. You view yourself as something more than a flesh and blood human, and it helps you obtain whatever psychological edge it is that you need to punch harder, clear your mind for deeper meditation, etc.

That's my totally unscientific take on it, anyway.

You both are essentially saying the same thing. A placebo effect can create a response. The crystal example I used earlier is a good example of a placebo creating a response--a positive effect--among some people who use them. But the crystals themselves aren't actually doing anything. It is the power of suggestion that crystals "work" that causes the effect. It's the same here if you take out crystals and add in chi. Yes, you could get an effect, yes the effect could be positive, but the effect is not being produced by anything supernatural or mystical.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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02-02-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 09:12 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You both are essentially saying the same thing. A placebo effect can create a response. The crystal example I used earlier is a good example of a placebo creating a response--a positive effect--among some people who use them. But the crystals themselves aren't actually doing anything. It is the power of suggestion that crystals "work" that causes the effect. It's the same here if you take out crystals and add in chi. Yes, you could get an effect, yes the effect could be positive, but the effect is not being produced by anything supernatural or mystical.
It's like taking your car in to get a service and then believing that it is running better, when in actual it really isn't running any better or worse.

People are stupid that way.
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02-02-2017, 09:43 PM
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 09:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 09:12 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You both are essentially saying the same thing. A placebo effect can create a response. The crystal example I used earlier is a good example of a placebo creating a response--a positive effect--among some people who use them. But the crystals themselves aren't actually doing anything. It is the power of suggestion that crystals "work" that causes the effect. It's the same here if you take out crystals and add in chi. Yes, you could get an effect, yes the effect could be positive, but the effect is not being produced by anything supernatural or mystical.
It's like taking your car in to get a service and then believing that it is running better, when in actual it really isn't running any better or worse.

People are stupid that way.

More like putting a lucky bobblehead on the dashboard of an already tuned car before a race.

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02-02-2017, 10:03 PM
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 05:38 PM)Kandall Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 05:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Please summarize the evidence.

It took that man, who is a prefessional psychologist that long summarize it into pellet able evidence for the average person. I am the average person in that regard. There is no possible way i can even imagine how to summarize his summarization. I apologize.

But if anyone does watch the video, i would be more than delighted to hear any objections, as i have tried to make my own arguments against it, but i just cant.

It sounds like he was making an argument, not presenting evidence. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2017, 10:04 PM
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 05:59 PM)Kandall Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence of chi. Or chakras. My opinion is that it is mystical nonsense.

As an atheist, i used to feel the same way. But i can no longer say that chi is has any mystical nonsense. It can be replicated and accounted for by the average person across all cultures and geographical boundaries

Citation required.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2017, 12:01 AM
RE: Chi
(02-02-2017 05:38 PM)Kandall Wrote:  ...
But if anyone does watch the video, i would be more than delighted to hear any objections, as i have tried to make my own arguments against it, but i just cant.

I've watched it and I don't have any objections... yet. I'll watch it again later.

I've experienced that 'flow' and indeed I gave an example of it in my recent critique of NDE OBEs

The content fits broadly with the HoC* hypothesis of the three simulators (self, other and future) and points to research of which I was not aware .... so that's useful. Thank you.

*HoC is TTA's atheist prophet.

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