Poll: Are Child Limit Laws moral, and should we use them?
Child limit laws are immoral.
Child limit laws are immoral, but need to be enforced.
Child limit laws are not immoral, and need to be enforced.
The earth is not overpopulated, continue with status quo.
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Child Limit Laws
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28-03-2012, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2012 01:33 PM by Antirepublican.)
Child Limit Laws
As any ecologist knows, when a population becomes too high the environment backlashes to lower the population. In nature this balancing of the population usually takes place with an increase in the predatory species that prays on said animal, but at times it happens with a depletion of resources.

Humans have been able to artificially increase the amount of resources in a given area to stave off the inevitable depletion of resources, but we all know that at some point the time will come when we have depleted said resources. Our very existence is also having a negative impact on our environment via pollution.
Some of the depleting resources,
Fossil Fuels - Within 20 years all the easily acquired oil will be gone, and its only a matter of time for the other fossil fuels as well.
Water - Pollution is making a huge portion of the little fresh water we have undrinkable.
Fertile Soil - We are consuming this soil faster than the planet can create more.
Food - tied to fertile soil, but also a problem given the sheer numbers.
Natural Minerals/metals - While iron and other metals are very plentiful, some others are not. Every time we make an item and discard it, then we essentially lost those materials forever.
Natural Gases - We have a very limited supply of natural gases, such as helium, stored within our planet.
etc..

In my opinion the only foreseeable solution to these global problems is to start enforcing a child limit law amongst industrialized nations.
I was curious how some of you guys & gals felt about this issue. Is it moral and do we have the right to make this a law?



My thoughts,
Some may insist that such a law would be immoral or fundamentally against our rights, however I strongly disagree. You have the right to do whatever you wish, until your actions violates the rights of others. Spawning way more children than necessary in a world with limited resources is in my opinion a huge a grave injustice to the people around you.

The only other alternative seems to continue on with the status quo, which of course will lead to a disaster on the scale we have never seen.
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28-03-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
(28-03-2012 01:17 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  In my opinion the only foreseeable solution to these global problems is to start enforcing a child labor law amongst industrialized nations.
Limit yes. Presume typo?

Hard to implement but China managed it. 1 child per couple. Fair at least. Not sure that anyone will have the stomach for it until the writing is very clearly on the wall. Politicians who support it would be villified and replaced, so society as a whole has to realise that the necessity is there before anything gets done about it.

Also there is a cost to limiting your reproduction - other countries simply out reproduce you and compete for resources... I don't know much about it but I understand that European nations have this problem, that their workforce is ageing and the younger generation has to support the older. Meanwhile a country which is skewed with a younger workforce due to rabbit like fucking has an advantage. Am I rambling or does this make sense?
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28-03-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
I say no but didn't vote because your options were limited. I wouldn't say it's a matter of morality. But no, you shouldn't be able to cap a pesons children. What are you gonna do? Sterilize women after 2 kids? Men? What if they do get pregnant? Forced abortion? Did you really think this through?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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28-03-2012, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2012 01:51 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Child Limit Laws
(28-03-2012 01:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-03-2012 01:17 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  In my opinion the only foreseeable solution to these global problems is to start enforcing a child labor law amongst industrialized nations.
Limit yes. Presume typo?

Hard to implement but China managed it. 1 child per couple. Fair at least. Not sure that anyone will have the stomach for it until the writing is very clearly on the wall. Politicians who support it would be villified and replaced, so society as a whole has to realise that the necessity is there before anything gets done about it.

Also there is a cost to limiting your reproduction - other countries simply out reproduce you and compete for resources... I don't know much about it but I understand that European nations have this problem, that their workforce is ageing and the younger generation has to support the older. Meanwhile a country which is skewed with a younger workforce due to rabbit like fucking has an advantage. Am I rambling or does this make sense?
Yah, thanks for catching that typo.

There is most certainly a problem with programs such as social security, where the younger generation is already supporting the previous generation. However, unless there is drastic reform of said program this will always be a problem. In fact, it will only get worse as time and the populations increase.

If you have a higher demand for resources, then they are cheaper. That is just a law of supply and demand, but I am not sure if that is a valid argument against child limit laws. Though a very interesting point. Maybe the competition itself is the problem here. We are trying to compete to survive, rather than work together to co-exist.

I will have to think about that some more.


(28-03-2012 01:29 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I say no but didn't vote because your options were limited. I wouldn't say it's a matter of morality. But no, you shouldn't be able to cap a pesons children. What are you gonna do? Sterilize women after 2 kids? Men? What if they do get pregnant? Forced abortion? Did you really think this through?
I would update the poll, but I don't know how. However, you sound like you are saying it is immoral, and shouldn't be enforced to me. If you are saying we shouldn't be able to take away that right, then to me that's the same as saying its immoral. After all, where do we get the notion of rights, if not our morals?

China makes it work, though I am not 100% sure on the specifics of how they do it. I believe there is a large fine for having a second child. Sterilization for males is a fairly easy procedure, and that could definitely be done if needed.


Do you have an alternate solution, or do you think its just not a problem?
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28-03-2012, 02:01 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
I don't like polls.

But technically we don't have over population problem we have a resource management problem.
We easily have the resources and space to sustain the population we have now but we just don't and we blame it on over population.

Not to say we won't have this problem in the future. It's just basic math. 6 billion times 2 is 12 billion and that's hoping the population only doubles over the next four years which it won't. We're already close to 7 billion I think. If not already.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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28-03-2012, 02:05 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
(28-03-2012 01:44 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(28-03-2012 01:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  Limit yes. Presume typo?

Hard to implement but China managed it. 1 child per couple. Fair at least. Not sure that anyone will have the stomach for it until the writing is very clearly on the wall. Politicians who support it would be villified and replaced, so society as a whole has to realise that the necessity is there before anything gets done about it.

Also there is a cost to limiting your reproduction - other countries simply out reproduce you and compete for resources... I don't know much about it but I understand that European nations have this problem, that their workforce is ageing and the younger generation has to support the older. Meanwhile a country which is skewed with a younger workforce due to rabbit like fucking has an advantage. Am I rambling or does this make sense?
Yah, thanks for catching that typo.

There is most certainly a problem with programs such as social security, where the younger generation is already supporting the previous generation. However, unless there is drastic reform of said program this will always be a problem. In fact, it will only get worse as time and the populations increase.

If you have a higher demand for resources, then they are cheaper. That is just a law of supply and demand, but I am not sure if that is a valid argument against child limit laws. Though a very interesting point. Maybe the competition itself is the problem here. We are trying to compete to survive, rather than work together to co-exist.

I will have to think about that some more.


(28-03-2012 01:29 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I say no but didn't vote because your options were limited. I wouldn't say it's a matter of morality. But no, you shouldn't be able to cap a pesons children. What are you gonna do? Sterilize women after 2 kids? Men? What if they do get pregnant? Forced abortion? Did you really think this through?
I would update the poll, but I don't know how. However, you sound like you are saying it is immoral, and shouldn't be enforced to me. If you are saying we shouldn't be able to take away that right, then to me that's the same as saying its immoral. After all, where do we get the notion of rights, if not our morals?

China makes it work, though I am not 100% sure on the specifics of how they do it. I believe there is a large fine for having a second child. Sterilization for males is a fairly easy procedure, and that could definitely be done if needed.


Do you have an alternate solution, or do you think its just not a problem?



I'm saying it's not a problem you can fix. Would you actually advocate the forced sterilization of men in order to control the population? That's a very dangerous idea.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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28-03-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
(28-03-2012 02:01 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I don't like polls.

But technically we don't have over population problem we have a resource management problem.
We easily have the resources and space to sustain the population we have now but we just don't and we blame it on over population.

Not to say we won't have this problem in the future. It's just basic math. 6 billion times 2 is 12 billion and that's hoping the population only doubles over the next four years which it won't. We're already close to 7 billion I think. If not already.
We are at 7 billion + and counting atm.

The estimates I saw suggest that we can sustain 2 billion on one earth. Wasting resources may be one problem, but I question just how low quality of life would need to be to sustain 7 billion people on this planet and maintain neutral resource depletion.

(28-03-2012 02:05 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(28-03-2012 01:44 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  Yah, thanks for catching that typo.

There is most certainly a problem with programs such as social security, where the younger generation is already supporting the previous generation. However, unless there is drastic reform of said program this will always be a problem. In fact, it will only get worse as time and the populations increase.

If you have a higher demand for resources, then they are cheaper. That is just a law of supply and demand, but I am not sure if that is a valid argument against child limit laws. Though a very interesting point. Maybe the competition itself is the problem here. We are trying to compete to survive, rather than work together to co-exist.

I will have to think about that some more.


I would update the poll, but I don't know how. However, you sound like you are saying it is immoral, and shouldn't be enforced to me. If you are saying we shouldn't be able to take away that right, then to me that's the same as saying its immoral. After all, where do we get the notion of rights, if not our morals?

China makes it work, though I am not 100% sure on the specifics of how they do it. I believe there is a large fine for having a second child. Sterilization for males is a fairly easy procedure, and that could definitely be done if needed.


Do you have an alternate solution, or do you think its just not a problem?



I'm saying it's not a problem you can fix. Would you actually advocate the forced sterilization of men in order to control the population? That's a very dangerous idea.
Of course its a problem you can fix....the solution is right there.

Why would sterilizing people be such a bad thing again? One little snip, and your done. A week's inconvenience at most.
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28-03-2012, 02:20 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
(28-03-2012 02:12 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(28-03-2012 02:01 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I don't like polls.

But technically we don't have over population problem we have a resource management problem.
We easily have the resources and space to sustain the population we have now but we just don't and we blame it on over population.

Not to say we won't have this problem in the future. It's just basic math. 6 billion times 2 is 12 billion and that's hoping the population only doubles over the next four years which it won't. We're already close to 7 billion I think. If not already.
We are at 7 billion + and counting atm.

The estimates I saw suggest that we can sustain 2 billion on one earth. Wasting resources may be one problem, but I question just how low quality of life would need to be to sustain 7 billion people on this planet and maintain neutral resource depletion.

(28-03-2012 02:05 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I'm saying it's not a problem you can fix. Would you actually advocate the forced sterilization of men in order to control the population? That's a very dangerous idea.
Of course its a problem you can fix....the solution is right there.

Why would sterilizing people be such a bad thing again? One little snip, and your done. A week's inconvenience at most.



OMG stop it dude. Just stop. You think that it's okay for the government to enforce male or female sterilization based on the number of children you have? Please say you don't or I'll lose faith in humanity.

God it's like conversing with Hitler.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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28-03-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
Wait... are you suggesting imposed sterilizations?

Did I read that correctly?

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28-03-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Child Limit Laws
I also saw projections on sustainable life and they also said 2 million but ideally around 500,000. The problem with the projection I saw was it was based on how things are currently done.
The world is a place where the majority of things we need are infinitely renewable but the majority of things we use aren't. By choice. It usually boils down to a cost ratio and most large companies aren't being forced to hangs anything so they don't simply because they don't have to.
The world will never unite and become a star trek like utopia full of peace and devoid of religion so in all reality the chances of us coming together to fix our problem is practically nil.
The other solution is to change nothing about how we live and instead limit procreation.
I don't exactly agree with that idea but it's likely the one we will see in the future as it doesn't force anyone to change the way they do business. And the government has always had a hand in our personal sex lives.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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