Child education and punishment
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06-04-2017, 05:21 PM
Child education and punishment
So a while ago I saw someone on another platform speak out strongly against punishment when it comes to child education.
This person claimed that any and every type of punishment for children equals child abuse.
I think this is a very strong statement to make and not necessarily correct so I explained that children need direction and that a punishment is a consequence to a misbehaviour. I also clarified that this consequence always has to fit the misbehaviour.
The example that had been brought up in the beginning of that conversation (by a third person) was taking a 3-year old toddler's favourite toy away as punishment. So in this context I explained that unless the toddler did something wrong with that specific toy and has been warned to stop previously, taking the toy away makes no sense to a toddler's mind. Toddlers are smart but they do not make connections between events the same way adults do and they are not learning from a punishment that does not fit the crime.

Generally speaking, my opinion is that when a child misbehaves, it needs consequences. It is simply a way to teach a framework to the child that prepares them for adulthood. I am not a monster by the way. I used to work in child care and have a very healthy approach to child education. My style is a good mix of giving explanations, teaching tools to find your answers, encouragement, and clear authority if needed (exclamation on "if"). So far it has worked, let's see how it goes when I got my own.

So when I said earlier that the punishment needs to fit the crime, here is what I meant:
I want to give an example that shows my approach to punishment. Then you tell me if that's abusive at all.

One of the kids was coming from a poor family. Because he never had lots of food at home he over compensated at lunch at the day care. So what was he doing. He was loading up his plate to a point where he could not finish physically. This ended up in me having to throw away lots and lots of food. Max was 5 years old and so there was a cognitive level there, where I could actually teach him something. I told him over the course of a few days, to take smaller portions and just go for seconds if he is still hungry but I also warned him that he cannot have dessert if he keeps loading his plate so much that I have to throw his food away because he is obviously too full to finish his plate and therefore dessert won't fit either. One day I made the threat a reality. First of all I kept him in front of his plate for a little while when the other kids were done and then I sat down with him. I told him to make a fist and look at his fist. I explained that this is the size of his stomach and he cannot fit more in. I had him compare his fist with what was still on his plate (enough for two kids to eat). He got very upset but it drove home the message. He had to leave lunch without dessert (but I gave it to him in the afternoon because I am not heartless).

So how do you view punishment. Is it just a way to show that there are consequences to unwanted behaviour? If it synonymous with beatings? etc

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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06-04-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
Each and every person I've met that raised a kid with the attitude that a spanking is NEVER justified, has raised a kid who's either a basket case or an inmate......

.......................................

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06-04-2017, 05:52 PM
Child education and punishment
Raising a child properly is a balance of positive and negative reenforcement.

I wish I could figure out what that balance is with my youngest.
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06-04-2017, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2017 07:28 PM by julep.)
RE: Child education and punishment
There's no approach that works for every kid. There are lots of people who support spanking/corporal punishment and feel it worked for them as children and hasn't hurt their kids. However, there are plenty of ways to help kids learn to respect limits that aren't based on corporal punishment.

I would never spank (and my kid's doing just fine). The effects of the physical punishments I got as a child--spanking, beat with belt, knocked down a few times--were extremely negative. Even decades later, I loathe all physical contact with my father.

For autistic kids like mine, some studies show that spanking increases problem behaviors--but I wouldn't have spanked him even if those studies had shown the opposite.

My focus as a parent was first to figure out the limits and then what tactics would motivate my son to stay within them. A puzzle requiring a lot of experimentation, a lot of the standard things like timeouts didn't work. I made lots of mistakes. As he got older, my focus shifted to persuading him that those limits--modified, reduced by that time--were desirable. Negative consequences (I can still hear my son's wail at age 7 or so: "Oh, no, not consequences!") included things like loss of computer playtime (or leaving the restaurant or birthday party--always be willing to leave) and also incentives like trips to the bookstore or ice cream, etc. Bigger positive stuff like Wii for bigger achievements in self control.

I also learned to explain behavior expectations and not to assume that my son understood them intuitively.

ETA: yes, I think that that a consequence that the child understands is linked to the behavior is the most effective punishment.
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06-04-2017, 07:29 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
(06-04-2017 05:52 PM)KUSA Wrote:  Raising a child properly is a balance of positive and negative reenforcement.

I wish I could figure out what that balance is with my youngest.

I have yet to figure out what the balance would be with my oldest...and she will be 40 this fall. Confused

The middle one wanted freedom so we made some deals. As long as she followed a few simple rules she could pretty much do what she wanted...she would have anyway but it made me feel better that there were certain lines that wouldn't be crossed.

Youngest was a breeze to raise. Not an angel but not trouble either. And to think I really didn't want a boy...he turned out to be the one who hasn't tried to drive me out of my mind.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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06-04-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
(06-04-2017 07:29 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 05:52 PM)KUSA Wrote:  Raising a child properly is a balance of positive and negative reenforcement.

I wish I could figure out what that balance is with my youngest.

I have yet to figure out what the balance would be with my oldest...and she will be 40 this fall. Confused

The middle one wanted freedom so we made some deals. As long as she followed a few simple rules she could pretty much do what she wanted...she would have anyway but it made me feel better that there were certain lines that wouldn't be crossed.

Youngest was a breeze to raise. Not an angel but not trouble either. And to think I really didn't want a boy...he turned out to be the one who hasn't tried to drive me out of my mind.

That's amazing.... I'm pretty sure I terrorized my mother.... not intentionally of course, I kinda like my mom.... but you know.... I'm stupid and dangerous by nature, I don't have enough sense not to do things that should have obviously killed me by now lol.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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06-04-2017, 09:39 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
My mother was both sympathetic to children and inventive. When my rumbustious cousins injured themselves, she would take their minds off the pain by bandaging the wrong limb; when my young brother got upset (over everything!), she would pretend to holler and wail right along with him. A child can't keep crying while it's laughing.

She was the same way with punishments. When my playmate (aged 4) kept biting me, my mother told her that dogs who bite must be muzzled, by law. Sure enough, the kid had to wear a scarf tied around her mouth and head, for a full ten minutes - and the threat that it would be longer with each transgression. When I kept wandering off (also around 4 - just exploring), I got confined to the dog kennel.

I never had my mother's patience. Whenever my kids misbehaved, I tried to make an appropriate lesson out of the punishment, but a lot of times, it was just obvious stuff, like having to do the chores of the sibling you wronged, or loss of phone or Tv for a week, or no replacement for the lost sweater.

There wasn't much hitting, but I admit to having swatted them across the back of the head once in a while for rudeness.

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25-04-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
Interesting! My view in punishment is descipline. When child misbehaves they must face a consequences but it doesn't mean heating them, hurting them physically is a sort of child abuse. We can things in detail why parents punished children when they misbehave.
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25-04-2017, 08:42 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
(06-04-2017 05:21 PM)Leerob Wrote:  So a while ago I saw someone on another platform speak out strongly against punishment when it comes to child education.
This person claimed that any and every type of punishment for children equals child abuse.
I think this is a very strong statement to make and not necessarily correct so I explained that children need direction and that a punishment is a consequence to a misbehaviour. I also clarified that this consequence always has to fit the misbehaviour.
The example that had been brought up in the beginning of that conversation (by a third person) was taking a 3-year old toddler's favourite toy away as punishment. So in this context I explained that unless the toddler did something wrong with that specific toy and has been warned to stop previously, taking the toy away makes no sense to a toddler's mind. Toddlers are smart but they do not make connections between events the same way adults do and they are not learning from a punishment that does not fit the crime.

Generally speaking, my opinion is that when a child misbehaves, it needs consequences. It is simply a way to teach a framework to the child that prepares them for adulthood. I am not a monster by the way. I used to work in child care and have a very healthy approach to child education. My style is a good mix of giving explanations, teaching tools to find your answers, encouragement, and clear authority if needed (exclamation on "if"). So far it has worked, let's see how it goes when I got my own.

So when I said earlier that the punishment needs to fit the crime, here is what I meant:
I want to give an example that shows my approach to punishment. Then you tell me if that's abusive at all.

One of the kids was coming from a poor family. Because he never had lots of food at home he over compensated at lunch at the day care. So what was he doing. He was loading up his plate to a point where he could not finish physically. This ended up in me having to throw away lots and lots of food. Max was 5 years old and so there was a cognitive level there, where I could actually teach him something. I told him over the course of a few days, to take smaller portions and just go for seconds if he is still hungry but I also warned him that he cannot have dessert if he keeps loading his plate so much that I have to throw his food away because he is obviously too full to finish his plate and therefore dessert won't fit either. One day I made the threat a reality. First of all I kept him in front of his plate for a little while when the other kids were done and then I sat down with him. I told him to make a fist and look at his fist. I explained that this is the size of his stomach and he cannot fit more in. I had him compare his fist with what was still on his plate (enough for two kids to eat). He got very upset but it drove home the message. He had to leave lunch without dessert (but I gave it to him in the afternoon because I am not heartless).

So how do you view punishment. Is it just a way to show that there are consequences to unwanted behaviour? If it synonymous with beatings? etc

Can/could you give him a package to take home without getting either of you in trouble?

On another note, I got beat enough as a kid that I made sure to never do it to my children, and they turned out fine. Beating the tar out a person doesn't teach the proper lessons, except that a bigger person can do it to them.
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25-04-2017, 08:53 PM
RE: Child education and punishment
(06-04-2017 07:25 PM)julep Wrote:  There's no approach that works for every kid. There are lots of people who support spanking/corporal punishment and feel it worked for them as children and hasn't hurt their kids. However, there are plenty of ways to help kids learn to respect limits that aren't based on corporal punishment.

I would never spank (and my kid's doing just fine). The effects of the physical punishments I got as a child--spanking, beat with belt, knocked down a few times--were extremely negative. Even decades later, I loathe all physical contact with my father.

For autistic kids like mine, some studies show that spanking increases problem behaviors--but I wouldn't have spanked him even if those studies had shown the opposite.

My focus as a parent was first to figure out the limits and then what tactics would motivate my son to stay within them. A puzzle requiring a lot of experimentation, a lot of the standard things like timeouts didn't work. I made lots of mistakes. As he got older, my focus shifted to persuading him that those limits--modified, reduced by that time--were desirable. Negative consequences (I can still hear my son's wail at age 7 or so: "Oh, no, not consequences!") included things like loss of computer playtime (or leaving the restaurant or birthday party--always be willing to leave) and also incentives like trips to the bookstore or ice cream, etc. Bigger positive stuff like Wii for bigger achievements in self control.

I also learned to explain behavior expectations and not to assume that my son understood them intuitively.

ETA: yes, I think that that a consequence that the child understands is linked to the behavior is the most effective punishment.

> My father started taking a belt to me when I was only four or five years old. He regularly thrashed me, sometimes with sticks, for petty offences. In addition, I was sent to Catholic schools where physical and mental abuse were considered to be acceptable "teaching" tools. My entire youth was a sad history of frequent periods of depression and psychological maladjustment. My father died in 2003. I did not shed even one tear for him at the funeral.
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