Children and punishments
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16-01-2014, 09:25 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 09:38 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Children and punishments
I feel like it's difficult to have a thread like this without requiring a certain level of qualification for entry. I have been on previous boards with dedicated parents sections both for this kind of thread and also to explicitly shield a portion of the board from google's probing so that pictures of children and the like can be posted more freely.

Myself I have two children. I thought I had discipline all figured out before I had children, and I was right. I could tell my first child which areas of the house were allowed and not allowed before she could walk and she would obey. I let natural consequence be the teacher. If she was going to do something that would hurt I would warn her. I would say "don't fall down from there". She would fall and the lesson would be learned. Next time when I said that she would think about her safety a bit more and step back away from the edge. A conversation has pretty much always been enough to change her problem behaviours. Miss 7 loves life and learning and is excited about the world and she knows where limits lie and where and when to take appropriate care.

But I have two children.

Mr 4 is more work. You show him a line. He steps across it, and says look at me Dad. I have been at places where I have carefully shown him where the limits were. Don't go past this line I would say. Stay where I can see you. Then he would spend the rest of the night going to each of those lines and either crossing or threatening to cross. Miss 7 is playing a game of living well and fully. Mr 4 is playing the meta-game or how the people around him can be poked and prodded until the rules change. Some children just want to watch the world burn.

He is maturing though. He's starting school this year and one of the best disciplinary techniques I have with him is increased responsibility. "Is that school boy behaviour?". "School boys always brush their teeth.". etc.

I smack my kids when there is genuine danger or risk to what they are doing and when they are just too manic to even see the line they are crossing. A smack like that is a statement that the line has been crossed and left a million miles behind. Mostly though it is the threat of a smack that I use. A smack only comes when there has been a clear and specific warning that it is coming due to real and present dangers that are explicitly and wilfully ignored. The warning of a smack is a kind of game around where the line is drawn. There is the serious warning denoted by a specific tone of voice the children know without question, and then there is the super happy fun time question of "how many smacks do you think you need to help you do x?". This the children know translates to "I'm reminding you that there is a line to be crossed here that you are bending very hard and that things will escalate if you cross it, but for now I'm happy to negotiate with you on exactly where we're going to draw the line together." This also tends to evolve into the metagame of "umm... three small smacks" at which point a "smack" is literally a pat on the bottom with absolutely no pain involved. I don't expect the children to be under my thumb at this time. I don't expect them to do what I say. I expect them to come up with a solution to defuse the situation that they find acceptable such as heading out to their room or approaching some activity in a more fun less serious way.

Smacking is only for the big things. My default response when the kids are getting out of hand is "ok, go to your room". That is a statement that the line is bending and that they need to immediately change their behaviour to avoid the stated punishment actually taking place. This is a good punishment when tension is high because it gives everyone the breathing space they need to return to normalcy. With Mr 4 in particular I have taken to following him in there and sitting with him in his time out, cuddling and chatting if wanted, etc. When the situation is calm everyone can get back to what they were doing.

Mr 4 has an angry and a violent streak. He tends not to want to settle down until he feels he has taken the pound of flesh that he feels was taken from him. He'll bite and scratch and punch etc. Each time we talk about it during and afterwards and about what he could do differently next time. I think it is diminishing over time. We'll see. This is one area where I think the "school boy" line is also helping, but my conventional solution is to make a game of it: If he tries to hurt me with a limb that limb is mine. If he tries to bite me his head is mine. After about five seconds I ask "do you want your arm back" or "do you want your head back" and I let go. This repeats until anger turns to play. Like I said we talk about these things afterwards and sometimes do some role play to get him to try different things, but the latter is difficult as he can get angry and upset again.

The main thing with Mr 4 is really quality time. He gets better and his behaviour gets better the more time I spend with him. It has been easy over the Christmas holidays but things might get difficult again on my return to work. He loves jumping on the trampoline being pushed on the swing set. We do those things together. At night we do a "voice recorder". We have a chat and record it on my phone. I did the same with Miss 7 when she was his age, and he is just starting to do thing like tell stories like she did. I'm trying to bring him out of that shell he's in where he doesn't want to talk about anything he considers unpleasant. He won't talk about his nightmares or things he did when he was upset. You can't push him on these things. All you can do is be there for him at the moment he does want to open up.

Also I use computer games as ethical training. I let my kids play fairly violent games like Team Fortress 2 and I talk to them about what they did and what was done to them, and if it was fair or not etc. I make my children feel bad about killing mobs and animals in minecraft and ask them to justify why they did it. I teach them about science. I do my best. I guess in closing I would say that children are different. You can't talk about what you have decided will work as a disciplinary technique if you don't have a child that you are actually talking about. Even if you have one child your disciplinary style will likely not be applicable or won't work the same way with subsequent children. You'll have to make adjustments, and you may have to treat different children completely differently as you work through various issues they have. More importantly though to talk about discipline as something distinct - something separate to the life you have with your children is to misunderstand your relationship with them. The correct disciplinary technique may be playing outside with your children before they act up rather than to deal with them when they are already manic. The correct disciplinary technique may be forming a deeper bond with your child leaving the "smack or don't smack" question completely peripheral to the disciplinary debate.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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16-01-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 09:25 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The main thing with Mr 4 is really quality time. He gets better and his behaviour gets better the more time I spend with him.

that is the key and it makes all the difference.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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16-01-2014, 09:56 AM
Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 09:39 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 09:25 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The main thing with Mr 4 is really quality time. He gets better and his behaviour gets better the more time I spend with him.

that is the key and it makes all the difference.

Agreed.

I loved to give choices starting at about age 2-3.
I'd explain what I expected...explain what would happen if he chose to do what he wanted anyway. 99% of the time he chose to follow the rules and I'd praise him for making the right choice. When he didn't, I'd follow through and remind him it was his choice.
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16-01-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Children and punishments
Going to punt.

I'm smart enough to know when a topic is too much. I understand people get emotional about these things.

It's also going too far. I'm being threatened with the CPS and jail when I haven't done anything remotely illegal.

I understand you don't agree with my parenting way. And, that's fine. You can hate me if you wish.

My concern is doing what is best for my children and instilling a sense of discipline in them. My son adores me and loves me and not in any way frightened of me. He sees me as a protector. Just the other night he came and got in bed with me because he was scared of the thunder.

I don't have to justify this to anyone. He's learning and being taught discipline the same way I was taught... the only effective way for myself... the only way I ever learned any discipline.

Again, you can hate me. That's fine. But, the minute you step into my personal life, you've gone too far. I don't have anything to hide. And, I'm certainly not doing anything that would get my children taken away from me. Don't even go there. Don't be that sick and sadistic.

This topic is much like the pedo topic of last year. I'm not going to feed it anymore.

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16-01-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 08:52 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  I dont have children. And one of the main reason why I dont want to have children, if not the only reason, is my fear that I could pass violence down the generations.

I ma not giving advice on parenting, since I am not in the position to. I am speaking from my expirience as a child aswell as I am acknowleging the laws of my land and the reasons for them being in place.

I have posted my arguments before, and see no point in arguing with some hillbilly who even refuses to adress these, but continues talking as if no questions were ever put up.

Love how you went to insults.

Spanking is not beating.

Just for my edification, if we disagree in the future do I get to insult you based on ancestry, loction etc?

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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16-01-2014, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 12:03 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Children and punishments
I'm going to close this for a while, so we can cool down a bit.

As per our forum rules:

We do not tolerate any physical threats aimed at any of our members. This behavior can result in your account being banned and depending on the nature of the threats your details being passed to law enforcement. It is also a bannable offence to interfere with, or threaten to interfere with, someone's life beyond the forum; either online (such as threatening to spam someone's Facebook page), or in real life (such as threatening to track down someone's phone number).

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ers--20958

Thank you,
Momsurroundedbyboys

PS;

Thread was closed for around 40 minutes and is now reopened.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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16-01-2014, 12:30 PM
Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 10:42 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 08:52 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  I dont have children. And one of the main reason why I dont want to have children, if not the only reason, is my fear that I could pass violence down the generations.

I ma not giving advice on parenting, since I am not in the position to. I am speaking from my expirience as a child aswell as I am acknowleging the laws of my land and the reasons for them being in place.

I have posted my arguments before, and see no point in arguing with some hillbilly who even refuses to adress these, but continues talking as if no questions were ever put up.

Love how you went to insults.

Spanking is not beating.

Just for my edification, if we disagree in the future do I get to insult you based on ancestry, loction etc?

Spanking or beating IMO both equal "assault" in my opinion. It would be a crime if you struck another adult.

It's a sad commentary when it's legal and acceptable to assault a child.

Boggles the mind.
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16-01-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 12:30 PM)hotnostril Wrote:  Spanking or beating IMO both equal "assault" in my opinion. It would be a crime if you struck another adult.

It's a sad commentary when it's legal and acceptable to assault a child.

Boggles the mind.

It wont be long.

Civilisation has it`s way of being an unstopable force.

And history has it`s way to let common mindsets of the past look redicilous today.

50 years ago, the same people who argue for childbeatings today would have argued for racial segregation.

Reason prevails. Which is why so many European countries have outlawd it completly and many more will follow.

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16-01-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: Children and punishments
O ffs people , get off your high horses.

Calling spanking child abuse is bullshit and you know it.
If you can't look at this without your personal experiences clouding your judgement you shouldn't take part in this discussion.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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16-01-2014, 12:58 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 01:20 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 07:14 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So, right, wrong or indifferent, my friend did the best she could in the circumstance.
I agree. It's just that there's a couple more things to do, find out why the child tends to run away, what does it run from or where does it run to. And control that variable. I mean, if we ask why does a chicken cross the road, we should also ask why does a toddler cross the road. And when you find that out, stop spanking, because it's not necessary to save the toddler's life.

(16-01-2014 08:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As Cathym said, sometimes negative reinforcement is necessary.
Necessary for what? What do you mean he's like you? If he's like you, then it may be genetic, in which case, does that mean we can beat up people because of their genes?
If it's not genetic, then it's some behavior he picked from you. Which means you did not control or correct yourself and you blame your son for that? Don't you think he can see if you do something but you beat him up for doing the same? To him it would have to look like hypocrisy. You can expect some rebellion in puberty, and for a good reason.
And I wouldn't leave the daughter out, she suffers through empathy almost as much, perhaps more if she's more sensitive.

(16-01-2014 08:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As I've said, OVER AND OVER, I tried all of that. We worked with him. We took all the advice for training a "strong willed" child.

At one point, he didn't have anything in his room except a bed and a dresser. All of it was boxed up.

Didn't bother him in the least.

Believe it or not, we didn't start off with whipping. We started off with all the stuff they tell you to do... all the stuff you read in books. It never really worked, but it worked well enough... that is until he hit about 2.5.

And even now, we try other things. Nothing works. Nothing. And, I'm not surprised. I remember when I was 4 and 5. None of that would have worked on me either.
What's wrong with strong will? Does it mean it has to be broken? Strong will is one of greatest life assets. He could be future leader of America, for all we know. Why do you have to destroy that will? Why can't you use it somehow, put some responsibility to it? See what the child wants? Seems to me the school was against his will. Beating did not change his will at all, it just broke or suppressed it. It may start again when he's feeling stronger.

Children do not get born evil or wicked for no reason. But the order of the world is specifically geared to break people's wills and grind them down into the same mold, so that they are good taxpayers. It is healthy to oppose that, no matter of the age. Share toys, pay taxes, die soon.
I know homeschooling is expensive, but it's way better than government schools.


(16-01-2014 09:25 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Mr 4 is more work. You show him a line. He steps across it, and says look at me Dad. I have been at places where I have carefully shown him where the limits were. Don't go past this line I would say. Stay where I can see you. Then he would spend the rest of the night going to each of those lines and either crossing or threatening to cross. Miss 7 is playing a game of living well and fully. Mr 4 is playing the meta-game or how the people around him can be poked and prodded until the rules change. Some children just want to watch the world burn.
Nothing wrong with that! There's a lot of world that needs burning, especially institutions using violence or funded by tax ransom (the legal populist mafia, a.k.a. government). So make sure your boy doesn't get anywhere near them, not unless backed up by a crowd of his fellow revolutionaries. The legal populist mafia and its tax slavery will probably go the way that slavery went and it will not be pretty and people like your son may be helpful in the process. Most lines drawn today are drawn by the 30 % richest people of the nation who can afford to buy congressmen and through them, they own you. So there's a lot of line-stepping and world-burning to be done.

(16-01-2014 09:25 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Mr 4 has an angry and a violent streak. He tends not to want to settle down until he feels he has taken the pound of flesh that he feels was taken from him. He'll bite and scratch and punch etc. Each time we talk about it during and afterwards and about what he could do differently next time. I think it is diminishing over time. We'll see. This is one area where I think the "school boy" line is also helping, but my conventional solution is to make a game of it: If he tries to hurt me with a limb that limb is mine. If he tries to bite me his head is mine. After about five seconds I ask "do you want your arm back" or "do you want your head back" and I let go. This repeats until anger turns to play. Like I said we talk about these things afterwards and sometimes do some role play to get him to try different things, but the latter is difficult as he can get angry and upset again.
Is there any way not to say "angry and violent"? What about passionate, athletic, strong-willed, self-assertive? This is a person suffering from a serious physical and mental impairment (early childhood) trapped in a totally controlling institution with strangers he didn't choose (family). I'm sure that would drive some people crazy.
In your situation I'd do pretty much as you do. You do a wonderful job.
I'd also try to give the child as much control over his environment as he can handle a.k.a. work - only dressed up as a big boy responsibility, or something like adults do - help with cooking, washing, cleaning? It seems to me he has a lot of ambition and wants to be like older kids. Some kids love to help and hang out with big people. Give him opportunities to feel older and stronger, solve problems, achieve things...

Will is not dangerous. Broken or bent will is dangerous. Suppressed energy is dangerous. These things literally lead to perversions and unhealthy compensations. If we don't get to test our will as children, the adulthood or adolescence would give us more expensive/dangerous and less legal ways to do it.
I didn't meet many strong-willed people, but you know the effect when people in midlife crisis find a younger woman and a red car? My younger brother was not allowed to keep toy guns. (guns are immoral!) So when he got older and got his own money, he bought several realistic metal replicas, airsoft guns like AK-47 and it cost him hell of a lot more money. I was not allowed to have long hair as a child, my mom would even smack me and drag me to a barber. So as a teenager I grew long hair against even greater opposition, I had to defend my hair, because classmates were extremely stupid and sometimes did bullshit with scissors or chewing gum. I got into more fights at school.
So everyone, please, realize how dangerous is suppressing someone's will, even if memories are hidden, the behavior is there sure as hell.
Children are like the Anonymous, they do not forget, they do not forgive.
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