Children and punishments
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15-01-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 07:34 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  The simple reason why I cant condone any violence against children is that it fundermentaly is violence against someone who is weak- I believe I can judge not just people but entire cultures on societies and how they treat their weakest, since being confronted with someone weak means that one has the responsibility to take care of them and nothing else.
Man, that was some awful childhood, I feel for you. You are completely right, the main reason why cultures should exist is if they can take care of their weakest better than just leaving them alone. If the culture did not or will not support us, then we have no reason to support it. In any case, we are not obligated to our parents in any way. Parenting is something between a charity and launching an arrow. You don't want the arrow to return, you want it to fly fast and straight.

Just consider, just about a year ago I was still somewhat pro-spanking, I thought I'd avoid it if possible, but I still thought it's the best thing for some children and situations. Now I am totally against it. (thanks Stefan Molyneux)
What I needed was a truly scientific look at it - and a lot of examples of how a real parent-child relationship looks like, how a real love is like. I needed to see there is a better way to do things..
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15-01-2014, 07:51 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 08:08 PM by Hobbitgirl.)
RE: Children and punishments
I'm a big fan of the "not repeating"policy.

A best thing a parent can do is back up what they are going to say. If you say to your child youre going to leave the store (for example) if they don't stop and they dont...you leave your cart there and you leave. *EDIT* WITH THE CHILD *ffs*

You don't yell, you don't hit. But you have to show them you mean business, and back it up.
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15-01-2014, 08:04 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 08:17 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 07:51 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I'm a big fan of the "not repeating"policy.

A best thing a parent can do is back up what they are going to say. If you say to your child youre going to leave the store (for example) if they don't stop and they dont...you leave your cart there and you leave.

You don't yell, you don't hit. But you have to show them you mean business, and back it up.
Are you sure about that? Imagine the situation. The parent is a source of life for the child. The child is totally dependent and knows it damn well. What the child does not know, is why are you leaving or if you even return.

It is like as if Buzz Aldrin went on the Moon to get some footage and the Eagle landing module with Armstrong would just take off and leave him there to die in the cold darkness, 300 000 km from home. This is how children see it.

Abandoning the child as a way of disciplining is like threatening the people at gunpoint to tell you what time is it. It is a vast, extreme overkill. And a huge trauma in a very vulnerable developmental phase, that is enough to cause us a childhood equivalent of PTSD. It is violence.
What you describe is dehumanizing the child. It is totally distancing yourself from the child's emotions and deliberately causing terror from abandonment.

I admit, I have felt like that and worse about children. Dehumanized. There is something satisfying in disciplining the child and soothing our annoyance. Children are like little animals or somewhat talking noisy pets or dirty toys constantly leaking something from most of orifices... It is not immediately obvious to grant them humanity and empathy. We are conditioned against child-empathy and self-empathy by our parents who have beat us up (and look how good we have turned out) and by the culture that condones punishment. And this is how I thought and felt as well until very recently.

What you can do? You can prepare the child for the situation. You can rehearse the scenario, you can explain the hours, the minutes, you can give a few notices 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes to leave. You can explain beforehand that you need to stick with a schedule and if the child does that too, you will be more willing to take him with you next time. Ultimately, you can not demand from the child anything you have not taught him before.
What made me think I could be less than fair and compassionate in the relationships?

Yup, dehumanization. Zimbardo's wraith is hovering above every home.
http://www.lucifereffect.com/dehumanization.htm
http://www.parentingforsocialchange.com/...ation.html
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15-01-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: Children and punishments
You dont leave them alone. Fucking hell you take them out of the store with you. FFS.


What is it with this forum.
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15-01-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: Children and punishments
Sorry for the outburst. It was uncalled for.

But even if it was a misunderstanding...who in their right mind would just abandon a child alone in a store?
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15-01-2014, 08:26 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 08:06 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  You dont leave them alone. Fucking hell you take them out of the store with you. FFS.


What is it with this forum.
Sorry for the outburst. It was uncalled for.

But even if it was a misunderstanding...who in their right mind would just abandon a child alone in a store?
I'm sorry too, this is a VERY unpleasant thing to say from me. Very accusatory. But I'm not accusing you of anything, until some months ago I thought exactly the same thing! I'm just passing forward a lesson that changed my opinions totally. Until recently I had absolutely no idea how to think logically about relationships.

Why do the act with abandoning the child in the store? Because it works. Why does it work? Because the child does not know that you intend to return. As far as the child's knowledge goes, you might be gone forever. And you know that, or you wouldn't do the trick at all, there would be no point in it, if the child knew it's just an act. It wouldn't work.
So your effective intention is to threaten the child, to cause the child a shock, a short duration of utter existential fright of abandonment and possible death, that's what evolution taught children, abandonment is death. Children are the least quiet of nature's young, they did not evolve for abandonment at all. Did you ever get lost when you were little? Do you still remember that feeling?
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15-01-2014, 08:26 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 08:12 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Sorry for the outburst. It was uncalled for.

But even if it was a misunderstanding...who in their right mind would just abandon a child alone in a store?

When I was five my mother left me at the side of the road. I will never forget that day as long I live. I was raped and abused by my ex-husband, but for whatever reason nothing compares to the sense of sadness and betrayal I felt the day she left me. She insists it was only 30 minutes, and it probably was, but it felt like hours to me.


Anyways, I do agree that you should follow through. If you're not going to do something then don't use it as a threat. It's one of those "don't make me turn this car around" things, don't say unless you're really going to do it if the behavior doesn't stop.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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15-01-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 07:17 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
Quote:I was spanked, and by no means did I feel "beaten" as a child.

Whether you agree with this form of discipline of not, it is not "beating." Further, when you call spanking a beating, you trivialize actual beatings.

Woah woah woah. I don't know who said this but I must have missed it. Spanking a baby??? What would even be the point?

No no, L&I, spanking a toddler. Not a baby.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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15-01-2014, 08:30 PM
RE: Children and punishments
It goes both ways. If you tell a child you love it and will be there to care for it. You dont just abandon it. If you destroy a childs sense of safety what do you have left? They have to be able to trust. Whether its as a punishment or love. (If that makes sense)
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15-01-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 07:33 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 07:17 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Woah woah woah. I don't know who said this but I must have missed it. Spanking a baby??? What would even be the point?

Spankers are like Theists turning to Deists when you corner them with facts.
When you can't justify spanking a child that you can reason with, the fall back justification is well I can still spank babies because they can't be reasoned with.

You could point out whole countries that have normal kids that were never spanked, but that is irrelevant as they are too busy concocting reasons why the spankings they have already dished out were righteous.

People have a hard time admitting they are wrong about something, even atheists.

Guys - it was me who said it and I wasn't implying the spanking of a baby. Lemme explain,

My friend had her son (age2.5) that would take off running every time she took her eyes off him. Since he was not the only child, it's impossible to watch him 24/7. Anyway, they were going to a bday party when the toddler darted though the open fence when a guest entered. He ran right for the busy road.

My friend, terrified, ran over to him, and delivered a swift slap on his diapered butt. Was there another solution? Maybe, but I can't judge her based on what she felt was the best for her son.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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