Children and punishments
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15-01-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 08:30 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  It goes both ways. If you tell a child you love it and will be there to care for it. You dont just abandon it. If you destroy a childs sense of safety what do you have left? They have to be able to trust. Whether its as a punishment or love. (If that makes sense)
It takes a while to learn to make sense of relationships. What you say doesn't yet have the logic of love in it. It took me some dozens of hours of podcast to start thinking less like my parents, you, myself and everyone I had met so far. See how it's done.

Firstly, children don't know what is love, what that word means. As I already wrote, they do not love you. They absolutely need you and their life depends on that, but that is not love. Clearly you don't need them the same way they need you, so you telling them you love them makes no sense. (and children are good at making sense logically, it's how they learn about the world- making logical generalizations)
Secondly, you refer to the future, that you will be there. That's just words. As a child I could get unsure about much more than that.

Thirdly, punishment is not love. Punishment is violence. It is your failure as a parent to prepare the child for challenges, your failure to educate beforehand, show, ask, listen, your failure to calm down, explain your feelings and to have a relationship with the child.
The child is a person and in order to have a good, loving, non-violent relationship, there must be a building of respect. Have you ever thought of respecting the child? I didn't. I had no freakin' idea. Yet in a romantic relationship, if your boyfriend would not respect you and beat you up and abandon you, you'd leave immediately. How comes that the children are exempt from a loving relationship rules? A child can not leave you obviously. So you must be always extremely careful not to turn into that abusive boyfriend who thinks he loves you, but has to teach you some respect.

(15-01-2014 08:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Guys - it was me who said it and I wasn't implying the spanking of a baby. Lemme explain,

My friend had her son (age2.5) that would take off running every time she took her eyes off him. Since he was not the only child, it's impossible to watch him 24/7. Anyway, they were going to a bday party when the toddler darted though the open fence when a guest entered. He ran right for the busy road.

My friend, terrified, ran over to him, and delivered a swift slap on his diapered butt. Was there another solution? Maybe, but I can't judge her based on what she felt was the best for her son.
Yes, that was a swift action saving the child's life. Good work. Although I have no idea what the slap on the butt was for. Are you sure the toddler understood it was because of the running away, to the road, which is full of cars, which are dangerous, physically, to one's life or health? Did somebody explain or show that to the child somehow? If so, why the slap? If not, then how could the slap on the backside have any educative function? Or was it more of a relieving the general ambient adult anger and anxiety and disable the little monster for a while?
Just askin'.
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15-01-2014, 09:14 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 08:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 08:06 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  You dont leave them alone. Fucking hell you take them out of the store with you. FFS.


What is it with this forum.
Sorry for the outburst. It was uncalled for.

But even if it was a misunderstanding...who in their right mind would just abandon a child alone in a store?
I'm sorry too, this is a VERY unpleasant thing to say from me. Very accusatory. But I'm not accusing you of anything, until some months ago I thought exactly the same thing! I'm just passing forward a lesson that changed my opinions totally. Until recently I had absolutely no idea how to think logically about relationships.

Why do the act with abandoning the child in the store? Because it works. Why does it work? Because the child does not know that you intend to return. As far as the child's knowledge goes, you might be gone forever. And you know that, or you wouldn't do the trick at all, there would be no point in it, if the child knew it's just an act. It wouldn't work.
So your effective intention is to threaten the child, to cause the child a shock, a short duration of utter existential fright of abandonment and possible death, that's what evolution taught children, abandonment is death. Children are the least quiet of nature's young, they did not evolve for abandonment at all. Did you ever get lost when you were little? Do you still remember that feeling?

It would be great if adults could feel the visceral sensation that children have. If you dumped someone out of your car in the middle of nowhere they wouldn't just be pissed. They would be scared and confused, but they have the ability to sort themselves out. Maybe flag down a passing car. Walk to a house and politely knock on the door and ask to use the phone. No doubt the homeowner would take them back to their house where they would have a key to get in. Kids don't have that.

Mind you my friend and her husband and I keep threatening to drop their little buggers of with the SDA on the way home when they are naughty.

"They don't have birthdays and they don't have Christmas presents and they make you go to Sunday School and read nonsense and you can't watch cartoons."

"NOOOOOOO!"

"Good. Now stop hitting your sister"
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15-01-2014, 09:29 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 09:14 PM)Pippen Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 08:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'm sorry too, this is a VERY unpleasant thing to say from me. Very accusatory. But I'm not accusing you of anything, until some months ago I thought exactly the same thing! I'm just passing forward a lesson that changed my opinions totally. Until recently I had absolutely no idea how to think logically about relationships.

Why do the act with abandoning the child in the store? Because it works. Why does it work? Because the child does not know that you intend to return. As far as the child's knowledge goes, you might be gone forever. And you know that, or you wouldn't do the trick at all, there would be no point in it, if the child knew it's just an act. It wouldn't work.
So your effective intention is to threaten the child, to cause the child a shock, a short duration of utter existential fright of abandonment and possible death, that's what evolution taught children, abandonment is death. Children are the least quiet of nature's young, they did not evolve for abandonment at all. Did you ever get lost when you were little? Do you still remember that feeling?

It would be great if adults could feel the visceral sensation that children have. If you dumped someone out of your car in the middle of nowhere they wouldn't just be pissed. They would be scared and confused, but they have the ability to sort themselves out. Maybe flag down a passing car. Walk to a house and politely knock on the door and ask to use the phone. No doubt the homeowner would take them back to their house where they would have a key to get in. Kids don't have that.

Mind you my friend and her husband and I keep threatening to drop their little buggers of with the SDA on the way home when they are naughty.

"They don't have birthdays and they don't have Christmas presents and they make you go to Sunday School and read nonsense and you can't watch cartoons."

"NOOOOOOO!"

"Good. Now stop hitting your sister"

Lol that's awful, but kind of funny.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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15-01-2014, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 09:52 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 09:14 PM)Pippen Wrote:  It would be great if adults could feel the visceral sensation that children have. If you dumped someone out of your car in the middle of nowhere they wouldn't just be pissed. They would be scared and confused, but they have the ability to sort themselves out. Maybe flag down a passing car. Walk to a house and politely knock on the door and ask to use the phone. No doubt the homeowner would take them back to their house where they would have a key to get in. Kids don't have that.

Mind you my friend and her husband and I keep threatening to drop their little buggers of with the SDA on the way home when they are naughty.

"They don't have birthdays and they don't have Christmas presents and they make you go to Sunday School and read nonsense and you can't watch cartoons."

"NOOOOOOO!"

"Good. Now stop hitting your sister"
Right, we don't have that depth of feeling. Or actually, I found out we do. Or at least I do. It's all there, I just had to listen to a bald guy talking his head off for a few months. And the things he talked about, very vividly, they reminded me of the old, painful memories of how I felt as a child, all the injustices, disrespect, pain and fear of being treated like a child instead of as a person. And it fuckin' hurts to bring that back to memory.
Basically, even years ago I didn't think parents are normal people. I thought they have to learn as much as children do - they need to learn how to not be such assholes. I have to say, my folks were gigantic assholes, only I haven't realized until recently how big assholes they were. Over the year they lost some of their arse-worthy habits, but more from laziness than genuine signs of intelligence. For example, they extremely avoided naughty words, but never once they hesitated to scream in rage of righteous indignation of an uncleaned carpet that would take 5 minutes to clean. No, they rather shattered my neurons with yelling, while using otherwise ridiculous Ned Flanders-like "curses". So as a result, my nerves are wrecked, my work morale is zero, both me and my brothers hate cleanliness and live as pigs most of the time and on top of that, my older brother is the loudest hysterically complaining screamer you can imagine, no kidding. But we don't use bad words! Good job, mom! Thumbsup


When I listened to the bald guy, I learned things about relationships I am hesitant to tell my mother, and sure as hell I would not tell that to her any time until recently, because I could just feel the rope of a relationship straining painfully when we get near some forbidden topics. Now I think we could, but there's no point now. Only if there were some grandchildren on the horizon, I'd have to take her into the Libertarian cult of not screaming and hitting children. I think she's about ready and softened by life's beating, life had been tough on her lately.

Thinking of that, I think I will call my mom about my older brother. She really needs to realize what she's done and apologize to him. Thinking of that, I might want to apologize to my older brother too, I thought it was his fault. Asked myself, What Would Stef Do?
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15-01-2014, 09:42 PM
RE: Children and punishments
No one has a right to spank a baby. If we're talking newborn up to 1 1/2, you shouldn't lay a hand on it. It's a baby.

But once it's a toddler, it's stepped onto the grounds of education. They're learning how to walk, talk, use the toilet. But they're also breaking things, screaming, etc. Raising your voice or putting them in a time out corner is suitable, but just a simple pop on the hand or on the butt for discipline shouldn't be a big deal either. That's what taught me, and I wasn't afraid. I always knew it was because I did something wrong. I was aware it was a lesson.

People see little slaps on the hand far too frightening than they should actually be considered.

But that's just IMO. Smile
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15-01-2014, 10:04 PM
RE: Children and punishments
I agree there isn't any point in physically punishing a child that can't comprehend why they are being punished.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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15-01-2014, 10:10 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 09:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 09:14 PM)Pippen Wrote:  It would be great if adults could feel the visceral sensation that children have. If you dumped someone out of your car in the middle of nowhere they wouldn't just be pissed. They would be scared and confused, but they have the ability to sort themselves out. Maybe flag down a passing car. Walk to a house and politely knock on the door and ask to use the phone. No doubt the homeowner would take them back to their house where they would have a key to get in. Kids don't have that.

Mind you my friend and her husband and I keep threatening to drop their little buggers of with the SDA on the way home when they are naughty.

"They don't have birthdays and they don't have Christmas presents and they make you go to Sunday School and read nonsense and you can't watch cartoons."

"NOOOOOOO!"

"Good. Now stop hitting your sister"
Right, we don't have that depth of feeling. Or actually, I found out we do. Or at least I do. It's all there, I just had to listen to a bald guy talking his head off for a few months. And the things he talked about, very vividly, they reminded me of the old, painful memories of how I felt as a child, all the injustices, disrespect, pain and fear of being treated like a child instead of as a person. And it fuckin' hurts to bring that back to memory.
Basically, even years ago I didn't think parents are normal people. I thought they have to learn as much as children do - they need to learn how to not be such assholes. I have to say, my folks were gigantic assholes, only I haven't realized until recently how big assholes they were. Over the year they lost some of their arse-worthy habits, but more from laziness than genuine signs of intelligence. For example, they extremely avoided naughty words, but never once they hesitated to scream in rage of righteous indignation of an uncleaned carpet that would take 5 minutes to clean. No, they rather shattered my neurons with yelling, while using otherwise ridiculous Ned Flanders-like "curses". So as a result, my nerves are wrecked, my work morale is zero, both me and my brothers hate cleanliness and live as pigs most of the time and on top of that, my older brother is the loudest hysterically complaining screamer you can imagine, no kidding. But we don't use bad words! Good job, mom! Thumbsup


When I listened to the bald guy, I learned things about relationships I am hesitant to tell my mother, and sure as hell I would not tell that to her any time since now, because I could just feel the rope of a relationship straining painfully when we get near some forbidden topics. Now I think we could, but there's no point now. Only if there were some grandchildren on the horizon, I'd have to take her into the Libertarian cult of not screaming and hitting children. I think she's about ready and softened by life's beating, life had been tough on her lately.

Most parents just fell into it. It is like people who win the lottery and are broke 4 years later. If the had spent a few hours a day learning not how to be dicked around they would be golden. Kids aren't hard. They are just weird. Listen to the weird and by the standard of normal you operate just try and make them functional human beings. Don't cut the ears of the cat. Pay your bills. Don't shit on people unless they pay you good money and expressly ask for it.

Listen to your kids. You just might learn something. OK a lot of what they say is utter nonsense but it is no worse than the rubbish your best friends idiot boyfriend comes up with.
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15-01-2014, 10:13 PM
Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 04:21 PM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  What are your ideas on disciplinary methods and child rearing?

Washing a mouth with soap?

Spanking?

Standing in the corner?

The time out chair?

Going to bed without supper?

Paying for broken items?

I only have one child, a son, the only thing I've ever used from the above list was standing in the corner and that was from age 2-4.

I've taken away things.

What I've found that works the best is positive reinforcement and a whole lot of preemptive talking. Laying out choices and talking through possible outcomes. Once in a very very blue moon I've played the guilt card.

Saying, "I'm really disappointed in you" is a phrase that really upsets him. He's harder on himself than I ever am.


It's worked really well. I have an easy kid and having one makes things much easier.
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15-01-2014, 10:17 PM
Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 04:51 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  My parents beat me to the point of hospitalisation.


Should anyone here even mention that he or she beats kids I will report that person, not to the mods, but the police.

I am so so sorry.
No child deserves to be treated like that!
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15-01-2014, 10:26 PM
Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 05:39 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 05:36 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Well, this sure escalated more quickly than the exact same thread over at AF.

Well yeah, I got banned for calling a redneck scumbag "child abuser" after he stated I should have been "beaten more as a child".

And I have absolutly nothing to appologise for.

A person who abuses a child - should be sharing a cell with a rapist for the rest of his or her pathetic life!

And a person who beats a child is a childabuser.

I agree with you. I was fortunate to have parents that had the patience to teach me. I was never hit as a child. I was never demeaned or called hateful names either.

I will never forget witnessing my best friend in 7th grade getting beat with a belt on her back, buttocks and legs. It was summer and she was in a bathing suit. We were late coming in from the community pool in her neighborhood. Her dad was drunk. I was so scared, I stood there so frozen in horror I urinated.

I has no idea parents could and did treat their children that way.
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