Children and punishments
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15-01-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 11:11 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:05 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I feel that the best method is to set clear and concise expectations and boundaries at a young age and build trust so that when you hit the harder years you have a couple things to lean back on. It's never going to be "easy".

Honestly I think classes should be mandatory for parents. *lol*

Yes yes yes...very clear boundaries with expectations with lines that aren't blurry.

A couple weeks ago, my oldest went out with some friends and came home in a cab. The cab ride wasnt cheap out to our home from where he was...

But hella cheaper than jail or getting in an accident because his friends were being idiots. He showed very good judgment and we were quite proud of him -- we told him so too. And reimbursed him for the cab fair.

Sounds perfect to me.

I don't have kids so I cant give examples from that. But growing up my mother gave me room to make mistakes but gave me very clear boundaries at the same time. She trusted me to think things through and that made me want to respect her wishes more.

Obviously I still had my moments. But I was never really a handful. I think I turned out already.

(Yes I was spanked a couple times as a child, and when you try to have a tanty in the store and your mother joins in....that makes you stop to think as well. Lol)
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15-01-2014, 11:33 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 06:33 AM by Dark Light.)
RE: Children and punishments
Classes by whom, and sanctioned by whom? Who decides the curriculum, who pays for the classes and ensures attendance? What board or committee certifies the teachers? What makes the deciders more qualified at determining what is good parenting than you or I?

This goal isn't even ideal IMO, but it's certainly unattainable without a strict and harsh government for purposes of determining what is good and bad parenting. Health and safety courses maybe an option, done at hospitals and doctors offices which are not compulsory are a good idea. Government should only be involved when laws are being broken.

Yeah, I saw the "lol", but I thought it was response worthy anyhow.

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15-01-2014, 11:53 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 12:04 AM by Hobbitgirl.)
RE: Children and punishments
Basic child development classes on how kids learn, suggestions on how to deal with issues that come up and basic health and safety classes would be fantastic.

Certainly beats the crap out of "what the hell am I doing"

I'm not speaking of having a "baby license" course or something along those lines.

But having that offered would certainly help a lot of parents out.
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16-01-2014, 02:18 AM
RE: Children and punishments
I have been around children most my life and I am not young: taught school, children of my own, grandchildren and now two GG grandchildren.

So, my first sage advice: when we first start out it seems, the focus is on what my child will not do or "my child will never be like that child." If you focus positively on what your child will and and can do, you will create a great adventure for you and your child.

Second, before your child is born, think, think, think and talk, talk, talk about what kind of parent you want to be. Get a plan and be prepared to revise, often. Never forget, you and your child are both author and reader in the parent-child relationship.

Third, let your child teach you.

Fourth, all children are different; teach your child to enjoy her differences as you already do.

Fifth, use discipline always lovelingly, never in anger, and very carefully. The discipline/s you chose will likely make or break your child for a lifetime.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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16-01-2014, 05:47 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 06:19 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 10:36 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Having actually taken college courses in child development I'll just stick with what I learned from there. Thanks.
Got any examples to enlighten me and other amateurs here? I wonder what do they teach on proper college these days.
I mean, what I heard from Stef so far was an awful lot of relentless logic. The premise is, that the child may look like a dumb little monkey, but its developing brain copies our behavior even if it doesn't show. Yes, we need to keep them clean and alive, but doing so while preserving personal integrity. Personal integrity is everything. A strong parent may make a perfectly groomed child, but that illusion will cave in or explode when out of reach of direct force. If all the child's integrity comes from a parental authority, and when the parental authority weakens or is gone, a disaster occurs. Parenting is not a job, it's a relationship. Parents need to create a person, not a robot. A person does things of their own will and desire, not out of someone else's will and desire. However, parents are not persons either, they're robots of their own parents.

That's the reason for all this moralizing, professional humanity, amateur sainthood, philosophy and logic. We try to create an independent, stand-alone unit of personal integrity, personal motivation and not our motivation. If we use violent conditioning, that's the dumbest thing to do, because it destroys integrity, it defeats the whole point of parenting. That's how I understand it, because my integrity and self-motivation is crap. The things my mother forced me to keep orderly - I have no motivation of my own whatsoever to keep them orderly. It was never my idea to begin with and hatred of compulsion keeps me not doing them.

I think that's a huge realization for me and if you've got anything better, I'd damn well want to know.

Edit: Ah, I see. You answered to DL. Nothing wrong with things like developmental milestones, nutrition, hygiene and so on. But it seems to me the basis for parenting is being a professional human being. Do you know how some qualitative field research methods in sociology need the researcher to have strong and clear ethical standards? This is worse. A parent needs to be a moral philosopher, a professional human being. If aliens looked for a representative sample of humanity to decide if vaporize Earth or not, that's the kind of person we need to be and it needs to be a warm, emotional genuine thing. I heard, if we are genuine and honest with the child, we love the parenting much better, the relationship is much better. Do people even get taught how to enjoy parenting? What parenting is today is more like professional bullying, who is supposed to enjoy that?
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16-01-2014, 07:03 AM
RE: Children and punishments
It's so tempting to go through this thread picking up quotes and replacing the word "child" with "wife" to point out how ridiculous and wrong some of you people are.

When you go to work and accidentally cock up, is it acceptable for your supervisor or whoever to spank you? What about any staff who happen to be under you? What do you think would happen if you hit them for making a mistake?
What about out in public? Someone jumps the queue in the supermarket. Do you hit them?
Yes? No? Why or why not? I'd love to fucking know.
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16-01-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: Children and punishments
(15-01-2014 08:54 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 08:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Guys - it was me who said it and I wasn't implying the spanking of a baby. Lemme explain,

My friend had her son (age2.5) that would take off running every time she took her eyes off him. Since he was not the only child, it's impossible to watch him 24/7. Anyway, they were going to a bday party when the toddler darted though the open fence when a guest entered. He ran right for the busy road.

My friend, terrified, ran over to him, and delivered a swift slap on his diapered butt. Was there another solution? Maybe, but I can't judge her based on what she felt was the best for her son.
Yes, that was a swift action saving the child's life. Good work. Although I have no idea what the slap on the butt was for. Are you sure the toddler understood it was because of the running away, to the road, which is full of cars, which are dangerous, physically, to one's life or health? Did somebody explain or show that to the child somehow? If so, why the slap? If not, then how could the slap on the backside have any educative function? Or was it more of a relieving the general ambient adult anger and anxiety and disable the little monster for a while?
Just askin'.

Gimme a break. My friend tried reasoning with her toddler. You do not run away from mommy. Time outs, rationalization, everything was tried.

Now, I'm not saying it's right. But what I'm saying is that applying a negative reinforcement isn't necessarily a bad thing. Instiling fear can be healthy if fear for things that can kill you are instilled. Since this was 5 years ago, I can tell you the child has no lasting emotional trauma for getting a slap on his padded butt. I think everyone is overreacting based on their own experiences. People are different and respond to different things.

I generally disagree with negative reinforcement on someone or something that can't rationalize. I do not apply NR when training my K9, only PR. Except when it comes to things that can kill them. To snake proof my dog, I have to deliver a painful shock when they approach a snake. It only takes one good zap for them to get the message.

So, right, wrong or indifferent, my friend did the best she could in the circumstance.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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16-01-2014, 07:16 AM
RE: Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 07:03 AM)NoraBrimstone Wrote:  It's so tempting to go through this thread picking up quotes and replacing the word "child" with "wife" to point out how ridiculous and wrong some of you people are.

When you go to work and accidentally cock up, is it acceptable for your supervisor or whoever to spank you? What about any staff who happen to be under you? What do you think would happen if you hit them for making a mistake?
What about out in public? Someone jumps the queue in the supermarket. Do you hit them?
Yes? No? Why or why not? I'd love to fucking know.

This is abductio ad absurdum argument. No one is implying that spanking means it would e okay to cold cock your professional subordinate

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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16-01-2014, 07:48 AM
Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 07:14 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 08:54 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes, that was a swift action saving the child's life. Good work. Although I have no idea what the slap on the butt was for. Are you sure the toddler understood it was because of the running away, to the road, which is full of cars, which are dangerous, physically, to one's life or health? Did somebody explain or show that to the child somehow? If so, why the slap? If not, then how could the slap on the backside have any educative function? Or was it more of a relieving the general ambient adult anger and anxiety and disable the little monster for a while?
Just askin'.

Gimme a break. My friend tried reasoning with her toddler. You do not run away from mommy. Time outs, rationalization, everything was tried.

Now, I'm not saying it's right. But what I'm saying is that applying a negative reinforcement isn't necessarily a bad thing. Instiling fear can be healthy if fear for things that can kill you are instilled. Since this was 5 years ago, I can tell you the child has no lasting emotional trauma for getting a slap on his padded butt. I think everyone is overreacting based on their own experiences. People are different and respond to different things.

I generally disagree with negative reinforcement on someone or something that can't rationalize. I do not apply NR when training my K9, only PR. Except when it comes to things that can kill them. To snake proof my dog, I have to deliver a painful shock when they approach a snake. It only takes one good zap for them to get the message.

So, right, wrong or indifferent, my friend did the best she could in the circumstance.

No you really can't reason with a toddler and trust they truly get it. That's why it's a parents responsibility to protect them. Being extra careful, hand holding and vigilance near roads, parking lots. Making sure they can't wander out the door.
A child shouldn't be punished physically or otherwise for parental failure.
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16-01-2014, 07:49 AM
Children and punishments
(16-01-2014 07:16 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 07:03 AM)NoraBrimstone Wrote:  It's so tempting to go through this thread picking up quotes and replacing the word "child" with "wife" to point out how ridiculous and wrong some of you people are.

When you go to work and accidentally cock up, is it acceptable for your supervisor or whoever to spank you? What about any staff who happen to be under you? What do you think would happen if you hit them for making a mistake?
What about out in public? Someone jumps the queue in the supermarket. Do you hit them?
Yes? No? Why or why not? I'd love to fucking know.

This is abductio ad absurdum argument. No one is implying that spanking means it would e okay to cold cock your professional subordinate

And people wonder why bullying is so common ....
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