China moving toward dictatorship?
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26-02-2018, 09:58 AM
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(26-02-2018 09:50 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(26-02-2018 09:37 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Would I be wrong to assume that the falling of the USSR played a significant role?
And then Glasnost?

You would be wrong to assume that asking additional questions will matter when preceded by such definitive statement like one you made: It can only get worse.
Never better. At least not without bloodshed.
It can get better without bloodshed.

To answer your question - if USSR wouldn't already be falling then there would be no revolution I suppose.

Quote:Was it a revolution as much as a change of government?
Like the USSR?

One can speak about change of government today when Obama was replaced by Trump. During Velvet Revolution entire system was changed from people democracy to democracy. But it's all in Wiki.

Well yeah of course.
Because they changed their form of government. Just like the Soviet Union was doing?
Changing from Obama to Trump is not changing the government. It's the normal process of electing leaders.

I guess I could see that happening in China the same way as the USSR but it would take similar economic difficulties.
If people abandon communism as a failure then that could happen.

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26-02-2018, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2018 10:08 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(26-02-2018 09:58 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(26-02-2018 09:50 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  You would be wrong to assume that asking additional questions will matter when preceded by such definitive statement like one you made: It can only get worse.
Never better. At least not without bloodshed.
It can get better without bloodshed.

To answer your question - if USSR wouldn't already be falling then there would be no revolution I suppose.


One can speak about change of government today when Obama was replaced by Trump. During Velvet Revolution entire system was changed from people democracy to democracy. But it's all in Wiki.

Well yeah of course.
Because they changed their form of government. Just like the Soviet Union was doing?

?

Going from autocratic regime to normal one definitely counts as revolution in my book (reverse also).

SU case was more complicated given that Czechoslovakia was mere satellite. But in essence, yes - forms of governance (not merely government) were changed in both political entities.

Quote:Changing from Obama to Trump is not changing the government. It's the normal process of electing leaders.

Should have wrote it differently but it hardly matters - changing president is ordinary matter, transforming entire system is not. Hence one is called revolution and second is not.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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26-02-2018, 10:19 AM
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(26-02-2018 10:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(26-02-2018 09:58 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Well yeah of course.
Because they changed their form of government. Just like the Soviet Union was doing?

?

Going from autocratic regime to normal one definitely counts as revolution in my book (reverse also).

SU case was more complicated given that Czechoslovakia was mere satellite. But in essence, yes - forms of governance (not merely government) were changed in both political entities.

Quote:Changing from Obama to Trump is not changing the government. It's the normal process of electing leaders.

Should have wrote it differently but it hardly matters - changing president is ordinary matter, transforming entire system is not. Hence one is called revolution and second is not.

Yeah,.
I guess my point is that it's a lot easier to hold onto freedoms than it is to get them back.
Once the mechanisms for change are gone the only course is outside of the system and it becomes an exercising in overthrow.
The USSR changed from the top down as I understand it?
There was no overthrow.

I don't see any scenario where the same thing would happen in China.
They have been willing to watch their people starve in the past and it didn't seem to cause any changes.
But who knows?
Westernization might change things if enough can "leak in".

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26-02-2018, 10:32 AM
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(26-02-2018 10:19 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Yeah,.
I guess my point is that it's a lot easier to hold onto freedoms than it is to get them back.

Possibly.

Quote:Once the mechanisms for change are gone the only course is outside of the system and it becomes an exercising in overthrow.

Even totalitarian regimes aren't static - change still takes place in them.

We may think about something different here, but consider this - after Stalin death SU became less repressive and this change came from within the system. It was Khruschev (among others) who wanted the change not some outside force.

Quote:The USSR changed from the top down as I understand it?
There was no overthrow.

Gorbachev wanted to change USSR (but more in line of restoring it to old greatness and returning to so called Leninist principles) but it's not like people were glad about existing regime, which economically was falling for some time and in which de-ideologization was fact.

You could look for more complete answer in Rudolf Pikhoia Soviet Union: A history of power, 1945–1991.

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26-02-2018, 11:42 AM
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(26-02-2018 10:19 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  The USSR changed from the top down as I understand it?
There was no overthrow.

This is...not even wrong Laugh out load

The USSR was completely abandoned, ceased to exist as a political entity, and the decision didnt come from within, the deciding action came from the outside (or lets say: by declaration of independence).

Ill explain. Gorbi was a communist. He didnt want to change the system, he wanted to refom it. Nevertheless he wanted to keep the communist Soviet Union.
The union part is most important as most americans will understand. Unlike the united states, most, if not all, of the soviet union states were forced into the USSR. Each state still had a "governor" or president as they were called in the USSR. There were three important ones, and one of them was crucial. The three important states were: Belorussia, Russia and Ukraine. The crucial peson was Yeltsin. Yeltsin was against the communist system, and was against the USSR as an entity/state. He was russian, not soviet. Countering the coup of the russian military made him a leading figure, and sisnce he basically defeated the generals who arrested Gorbi, it was clear that the most poswerful man in the Soviet union wasnt the President of the USSR but the President of Russia. The power struggle went on a bit, with Yeltsin easily gaining the upper hand, by even be able to publicly force Gorbi to read a note in parliament which Yeltsin had written earlier. Realizing how the central/union government, represented by Gorbi was about to fail, Yeltsin contacted the other two presidents and they secretly met (think was in a remote area of Belosrussia) and signed a treaty that basically declared independence of these most important states of the USSR and subdivided the nuclear arsenal (it was actually during a harsh winter and Yeltsin and the others wer elooking for options for their states to literally survive winter). They even realized that they missed out Kasachstand and quickly called its president to sign too Laugh out load . Then gorbi was informed that these 3+1 USSR stated declared and acknowledged each others independence with this Treaty of Minsk in December, 8th 1991. After this it was practically over with the USSR. Gorbi had to acknowledge this, that he had no authority, no nukes, and after the loss of the 4 biggest states (baltic states already were gone in 1990) there wasnt much left of the USSR anyway. Shortly thereafter he had to resign and the treaty went according to plan and the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) was formed. Basically it was a peaceful version of the american civil war with the greys winning. Big Grin

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28-02-2018, 09:55 PM
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
Here’s an interesting new development, in case anyone still thinks China isn’t a full-fledged Totalitarian Country by now:


China bans the letter 'N' and George Orwell's Animal Farm as President Xi JinPing extends grip on power

MARTIN COULTER | Evening Standard, 28 February 2018

The Chinese government has banned the letter 'N' and George Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984 in a major online censorship clampdown.

Experts believe the crackdown is part of leader Xi Jinping's plans become a dictator for life. The move has been met with criticism from around the world.

The China Digital Times reports that a list of proposals made by Beijing's National People's Conference includes the letter 'n', George Orwell's novels 'Animal Farm' and '1984', and the phrase 'Xi Zedong', a combination of Mr Xi and former dictator Chairman Mao Zedong's names.

It is not entirely clear why the letter 'n' was briefly banned, just one among hundreds of words and phrases, although some speculate it could be considered a sign of dissent.

Charlie Smith, co-founder of GreatFire.org, which helps users track and bypass Chinese censorship, told The Guardian: “[Censors] probably determined it was sensitive and then moved to add that content to the blacklist so others would not be able to post something similar,” he said, noting that the seditious symbol had now been emancipated.

“I doubt that they actually put that much thought into it so sadly, the letter ‘N’ was a victim of this rash decision.”

Censors also banned images of Winnie the Pooh after dissenters shared images of the cartoon bear hugging a jar of honey alongside the quote: "Find the thing you love and stick with it."

The Disney bear's image has been compared to President Xi Jinping, prompting periodic blocks on the use of Pooh pictures online.

Mr Xi's rule has been characterised by a relentless crackdown on critics and independent civil society voices such as lawyers netted in a sweeping crackdown on legal activists that began in July 2015.

Joseph Cheng, a long-time observer of Chinese politics now retired from the City University of Hong Kong, said that following the passage of the constitutional amendment: "There will be even less tolerance of criticism.”
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04-03-2018, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2018 12:24 PM by zankhellendros.)
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(26-02-2018 08:03 AM)ShadowProject Wrote:  Don't forget that they track and monitor citizens:

https://www.theatlantic.com/internationa...ce/552203/

"Imagine a society in which you are rated by the government on your trustworthiness. Your “citizen score” follows you wherever you go. A high score allows you access to faster internet service or a fast-tracked visa to Europe. If you make political posts online without a permit, or question or contradict the government’s official narrative on current events, however, your score decreases. To calculate the score, private companies working with your government constantly trawl through vast amounts of your social media and online shopping data."
I was going to make a post about the sesame credit story but thought it would be brought up here and sure enough, in the original post.
While I can see the use for our credit score here in the US as important to a capitalistic system, i think its no better. People fall on hard times and to say that a bad score here reflects an unwillingness to pay your bills is equally as stupid. But everyone wants the opportunity to judge others instead of themselves. Systems need scapegoats as to why things aren't going right. After all the majority can't be in the wrong because Reasons.

Also
While historically to remove tyranny it takes brute force, the modern age has had a few peaceful transitions of power, yes. However it has also had its share of blood-spilling as well and to say it could be ok seems reckless.

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule Friedrich Nietzsche
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08-03-2018, 12:20 PM
RE: China moving toward dictatorship?
(28-02-2018 09:55 PM)Kaneda Wrote:  Here’s an interesting new development, in case anyone still thinks China isn’t a full-fledged Totalitarian Country by now:


China bans the letter 'N' and George Orwell's Animal Farm as President Xi JinPing extends grip on power

MARTIN COULTER | Evening Standard, 28 February 2018

The Chinese government has banned the letter 'N' and George Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984 in a major online censorship clampdown.

Experts believe the crackdown is part of leader Xi Jinping's plans become a dictator for life. The move has been met with criticism from around the world.

The China Digital Times reports that a list of proposals made by Beijing's National People's Conference includes the letter 'n', George Orwell's novels 'Animal Farm' and '1984', and the phrase 'Xi Zedong', a combination of Mr Xi and former dictator Chairman Mao Zedong's names.

It is not entirely clear why the letter 'n' was briefly banned, just one among hundreds of words and phrases, although some speculate it could be considered a sign of dissent.

Charlie Smith, co-founder of GreatFire.org, which helps users track and bypass Chinese censorship, told The Guardian: “[Censors] probably determined it was sensitive and then moved to add that content to the blacklist so others would not be able to post something similar,” he said, noting that the seditious symbol had now been emancipated.

“I doubt that they actually put that much thought into it so sadly, the letter ‘N’ was a victim of this rash decision.”

Censors also banned images of Winnie the Pooh after dissenters shared images of the cartoon bear hugging a jar of honey alongside the quote: "Find the thing you love and stick with it."

The Disney bear's image has been compared to President Xi Jinping, prompting periodic blocks on the use of Pooh pictures online.

Mr Xi's rule has been characterised by a relentless crackdown on critics and independent civil society voices such as lawyers netted in a sweeping crackdown on legal activists that began in July 2015.

Joseph Cheng, a long-time observer of Chinese politics now retired from the City University of Hong Kong, said that following the passage of the constitutional amendment: "There will be even less tolerance of criticism.”


Well, the tools of actually implementing a version of 1984 exist today in a way they never did when the book was written. I can now imagine an actual system of total awareness and monitoring by a big brother government that controls thought. Censorship is one way to control thought. If you control the words people can use, they quickly learn to use only language that is "good" in the eyes of the all seeing government. And if you really want extra points, only use words that are double plus good.
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