Choice Paradox
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11-01-2012, 03:08 AM
Choice Paradox
I would be interested to see what can be offered to the following topic.

Choice cannot be chosen because if the the choice to not choose it exists, then it must already exist. Choice lays its own groundwork.

I was also thinking about the Paradox of Gods first Choice and how there could not have been a chosen first choice because the whole must be known. If one surrenders that platform the problem still exists because a simultaneous understanding of the whole or every possible road is still not a chosen road the first road must therefore be arbitrary.

It is opposing that which allots for a subtly such as the non-evolving god, so as to not give the impression of imperfection, which just restricts the view of choice to a point that its existence appears as the necessary runoff to paint the basis for the scale of perfection necessary for recognition.

I would be interested in anything that would keep someone from the gestalt of our lack of free will, as well as anyone else who feels they have something to add to the topic.
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11-01-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Choice Paradox
Words create meaning from definition and concept. If we use a word to define the concept of "choice," then the definition of the word also confines the concept. What is the choiceless choice? To be or not to be, but how can one not be? To end, now; yet I was, by these words, once - being.

Simultaneity is the answer; yet it is an unknowable answer. We are creatures of sequence, and to embrace simultaneity is to first leave sanity and then leave life.

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11-01-2012, 08:55 AM
RE: Choice Paradox
Well, to put it frankly, God is like a Pokemon.

It evolves as time passes, as seen from the changing theories to suit the conclusion that God exists.
It has different forms like Eevee, as seen from other sects of Christianity and even other religions.
It has 4 moves. Growl, Substitute, Mind Reader, and Leech Life.
It needs constant attention. Neglecting your Pokemon will displease it, and you do not like it when it is angry (except when you want max dmg for Frustration)
You increase the happiness of God by feeding it livestock and crops, the same way you feed berries and Poffins to Pokemon.
Also, both are considered fictional characters but some treat them as real.

Oh wait, it's about free will and choice under an omniscient God? That's a logical contradiction, isn't it?

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Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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11-01-2012, 09:19 AM
RE: Choice Paradox
Putting the descriptor "free" before "will" contradicts my logic. Big Grin

I got will; see me willing it? I will in en francais, pour exemple, et qu'est-ce passe? Yeah, question mark; violation of policy. Bad, Johnny, bad; ain't even good French. Tongue

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11-01-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: Choice Paradox
Hey, GVI.

Welcome to the forum.

That was a really well thought out post. Glad to have you.

Choice can't be chosen? Accepted. But choice has never been absolute. I can't chose to fly under my own power or breathe water. Neither can I chose to not have choice.

In terms of God's first choice, I think there's two camps. I think there's the camp that believes that God would be subject to things like time, specifically linear time and the camp that believes that God is beyond such things and that concepts like 'first' simply don't apply. If God exists, then I gotta go with camp two. I can't comprehend how a God who created time would be subject to it. There's a paradox for you Cool If God doesn't exist, then it's moot.

Quote:It is opposing that which allots for a subtly such as the non-evolving god, so as to not give the impression of imperfection, which just restricts the view of choice to a point that its existence appears as the necessary runoff to paint the basis for the scale of perfection necessary for recognition.

Ya lost me on that one. Can you dumb it down for us pleebs?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-01-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Choice Paradox
(11-01-2012 03:08 AM)God Vs Itself Wrote:  Choice cannot be chosen because if the the choice to not choose it exists, then it must already exist. Choice lays its own groundwork.

I was also thinking about the Paradox of Gods first Choice and how there could not have been a chosen first choice because the whole must be known. If one surrenders that platform the problem still exists because a simultaneous understanding of the whole or every possible road is still not a chosen road the first road must therefore be arbitrary.

This sounds like the Intelligent Design argument in reverse. It is predicated upon an assumption that "choice" is an infinite regress, if I understand you properly, one that could not have been "created".

It all smells like a word game, and I hesitate to believe a proof based on what may very well be equivocation with the word "choice".

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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11-01-2012, 11:51 AM
RE: Choice Paradox
Let's say that at some future point a million years from now, long after human beings have ceased to exist, beings of energy in grand populations exist moving from world to world in their travels and one such being has a vision of a human being as we exist now. This being only has a vague notion of what this ONE human being truly is. It envisions the form without knowing any of the function and wonders what it's very first choice was.

I think for us to contemplate a god is the same as an energy being from a million years from now trying to contemplate a human.

Our definitions of what we think a god is - is the same as this creature a million years from now trying to figure out how a human came to exist - whole as an adult, as the ONLY one that ever existed with no thought of any evolutionary biology that went into the millions of years before it that participated in the making of a human.

So in ending this thought, asking what a gods first choice was is a silly nonsensical question in my opinion.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-01-2012, 02:30 PM
RE: Choice Paradox
(11-01-2012 09:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Putting the descriptor "free" before "will" contradicts my logic. Big Grin

I got will; see me willing it? I will in en francais, pour exemple, et qu'est-ce passe? Yeah, question mark; violation of policy. Bad, Johnny, bad; ain't even good French. Tongue

Thank you for your interest. I sincerely commend you for your ability to turn this into such a conveyable soundbite. Coincidentally I have had recent intrigue in George Cantor after Seeing Zeno's "Fractal ad infinitum" refuted by restating infinity from the standpoint of equilibrium. I'm sure you picked up on it, but this Concept "Gods First Thought" is really just a rebuffed version the question "Was the first disequilibrium an arbitrary event as apposed to a sequential set". Your position "simultaneous" is the only one that makes sense yet its only provocation revisits the similar issue. If its all simultaneous then none of it is. Yet Still Are we faced to cope with its levels of simultaneity forcing it into a closed set model where the question of where to start persists.

Always Never Sometimes but then what of Sometimes Never Always.

I was feeling comfortable with being on the Dice until I considered the Chance of Dice on the Dice. Hinting at the worst forecast yet if ever we should Roll a

Sometimes Always Never

Maybe a result due Less to an issue of the Choiceless Choice, but the Chance Of Chance.
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11-01-2012, 02:59 PM
RE: Choice Paradox
(11-01-2012 02:30 PM)God Vs Itself Wrote:  
(11-01-2012 09:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Putting the descriptor "free" before "will" contradicts my logic. Big Grin

I got will; see me willing it? I will in en francais, pour exemple, et qu'est-ce passe? Yeah, question mark; violation of policy. Bad, Johnny, bad; ain't even good French. Tongue

Thank you for your interest. I sincerely commend you for your ability to turn this into such a conveyable soundbite. Coincidentally I have had recent intrigue in George Cantor after Seeing Zeno's "Fractal ad infinitum" refuted by restating infinity from the standpoint of equilibrium. I'm sure you picked up on it, but this Concept "Gods First Thought" is really just a rebuffed version the question "Was the first disequilibrium an arbitrary event as apposed to a sequential set". Your position "simultaneous" is the only one that makes sense yet its only provocation revisits the similar issue. If its all simultaneous then none of it is. Yet Still Are we faced to cope with its levels of simultaneity forcing it into a closed set model where the question of where to start persists.

Always Never Sometimes but then what of Sometimes Never Always.

I was feeling comfortable with being on the Dice until I considered the Chance of Dice on the Dice. Hinting at the worst forecast yet if ever we should Roll a

Sometimes Always Never

Maybe a result due Less to an issue of the Choiceless Choice, but the Chance Of Chance.

"First" is a deception. We don't pause in sequence, we don't hit halting states (unless one is Christian - JesusSavesJesusSavesJesus - Tongue); what do we do? Divide the circle. Duality. Choose, or chose not to choose. This is our functionality that keeps us sane (well, relatively). A point becomes the circle, two points define the line; three the trine inscribed inside. Counting to infinity when the circle becomes the circle. A point is without dimension but we must make do, with at least two; time, and space, cause, and effect. Chance and probability field. What simultaneity are we given? I am than I am? That if I did not remember the words, I could not construct from them meaning? What is set? Empty, and from that duality of meaningless and meaning; set theory.

Digital; one that is zero, from the Void, All.

Yeah, the mind doesn't like that kind of stuff. I don't see any other metaphysical solution; while I am that I am, aleph is the zero, Love is Void, and I am content.

tao is the essence of motion. Blame tao - works for me. Wink

And where else to start but i - imaginary number - where first squared is not negative one but rather space for one to exist. Yeah, what a clusterfuck. Tongue

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11-01-2012, 10:01 PM
RE: Choice Paradox
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