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30-10-2014, 01:27 PM
RE: Choices
(30-10-2014 01:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  Now, I know I am atypical since I deconverted at age 10.

But - no matter how much I wanted to - I KNOW that the bible isn't an actual account of things that really happened. I can't possibly make myself think otherwise. It just isn't possible.

It has always been a mystery to me how an atheist can convert and become a believer... does that really ever happen?

Well, of course No True Atheist™ ever does. Big Grin


Yeah - I'm with you 100% on this. Except I never deconverted; didn't have to.

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30-10-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: Choices
I certainly never chose to stop believing. In fact, when it happened to me, I didn't even want it that way at first. I prayed and asked "God" to help me get my faith back. I was scared out of my wits that I'd be going to hell. So no, belief vs. non-belief is not a choice.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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30-10-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Choices
(30-10-2014 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  I keep hearing people state that they "choose" to believe.

How can one even do that?

Is it just me or is it just impossible to "believe" stuff you know to be nonsense?

I think we do have some sway in what we believe. We can convince ourselves of a belief fairly easily given enough time and desire to believe. Of course, if we are convinced of an X as bullshit, we're probably never going to believe in X, due to the predisposition of 'X is bullshit'.

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30-10-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: Choices
(30-10-2014 01:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  Now, I know I am atypical since I deconverted at age 10.

But - no matter how much I wanted to - I KNOW that the bible isn't an actual account of things that really happened. I can't possibly make myself think otherwise. It just isn't possible.

It has always been a mystery to me how an atheist can convert and become a believer... does that really ever happen?

a few people have claimed to do it in their books.....though a book deal ight have something to do with it.

Ive never met one IRL, but I also don't get out much. Isnt Christianity growing in China? I am guessing that would be the easiest place to look. ? just guessing.


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30-10-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: Choices
(30-10-2014 03:58 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(30-10-2014 01:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  Now, I know I am atypical since I deconverted at age 10.

But - no matter how much I wanted to - I KNOW that the bible isn't an actual account of things that really happened. I can't possibly make myself think otherwise. It just isn't possible.

It has always been a mystery to me how an atheist can convert and become a believer... does that really ever happen?

a few people have claimed to do it in their books.....though a book deal might have something to do with it.

Well, C.S. Lewis was one of those who claimed to do it in a book, but the book in question (Surprised by Joy) was written many years after his conversion, and he was already a hugely successful author -- so I doubt that he made a false claim for the book deal. He may have been deluded about religion, but I've read some of his books, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't dishonest about it. I think his conversion was a sincere one -- which puzzles me, because I don't see how that happens either. But it seems to have happened in his case. Another one is Edward Feser. I don't buy Feser's arguments, and his arrogance is a big turnoff for me, but I don't think he's stupid, and I don't think he's dishonest. I think he actually did convert. Another puzzle.
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30-10-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: Choices
I've been told many times that I've chosen to go to hell.

I don't have a choice. In fact, if anything, that choice is being taken away from me. A choice is a selection between valid options and there is no evidence of god existing to make belief in him a valid option. So it's dismissed.

When I go to The store, I can choose to not buy the bacon flavour crisps or not to buy the chicken flavour crisps. I can't choose not to buy the Grilled Dog flavour crisps because they don't exist.

But to a Christian... I choose not to buy the dog crisps.
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30-10-2014, 06:49 PM
RE: Choices
I also don't think it's a choice. When I deconverted, I didn't even realize it happened. I didn't do like "Ok, now I choose to stop believing". I just kept watching and I guess sometimes reading material that I found interesting and fascinating, and at some point I realized that I just didn't believe anymore.

So there was a reasoning, a movement of my own perspective that convinced me of it, not an intentional choice. Even those that say they choose to believe... I think that they are already convinced of it. Can you choose to honestly believe in Santa Claus again? I didn't think so.

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30-10-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Choices
(30-10-2014 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  I keep hearing people state that they "choose" to believe.

How can one even do that?

Is it just me or is it just impossible to "believe" stuff you know to be nonsense?

It IS a bunch of non sense. When you are indoctrinated into a religion, you are indoctrinated into the belief that everything in the universe that happens is the result of GOD based on human choices.

Nothing in the universe can ever possibly happen if it was not the choice or actions of a human being somewhere that decided for it to happen. So of course that your sexuality and beliefs and everything else about yourself is a choice! Dodgy

It is this mega massive self delusional sense of self grandeur and importance that is the culprit. It is that pretentious and delusional belief that human beings are so important that we are god himself. That WE are the direct cause of everything in the universe. This kind of thinking has persisted since ancient times where it was first manifested. When people thought the sun and moon were inside of the planet earth and that the stars were actual dots of light on the sky at night instead of the massive incandescent gas balls we know them to be.

If we knew how BIG the universe was back then and had an idea of just how insane this kind of thinking is, of how completely bat shit moronic someone has to be in order to believe that a comet hit a planet in a galaxy 400 million galaxies away because Jimmy touched himself at night time, than none of that belief that sexuality and everything else in the universe being a choice would had ever caught on and would not still exist and persist today.


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31-10-2014, 12:40 AM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 01:32 AM by Switz5678.)
RE: Choices
(30-10-2014 09:13 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-10-2014 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  I keep hearing people state that they "choose" to believe.

How can one even do that?

Is it just me or is it just impossible to "believe" stuff you know to be nonsense?

In the most recent such thread, the OP claimed to be talking about "choosing" to believe in one or the other of two alternatives that are equally probable, with no slam-dunk proof of either. In that context, yes, I think you can choose to believe one or the other.

However, I think he was deluding himself into thinking that the two alternatives are equally probable. If one alternative is clearly nonsense, and the other one is close to certain, I have no choice. I must believe what the evidence tells me. So I'm with you on this one.

However, I suppose it is possible for mentally ill people to delude themselves into believing just about anything.

No, What I thought was that we don't have enough information to even form a probability. When that situation arises why not entertain the scenario you like most. You will be happier. This is more of a philosophy then anything else

We don't have enough information to form a probability of you dying tomorrow. Would you entertain the scenario of your death? of course in this scenario we could find pertinent data which we could use to develop a probability. Things like your age, condition of health, how much you drive each day..

When were speaking of an after-life though we don't even know how to measure the probability. We aren't sure that the test we do are even valid. I don't think the probability is 50/50, I think we have no fucking clue what it is at this time.

People were throwing around likelihood of this and that based on tests that were done of which we aren't even certain they measure what they're intended to measure. The test's that we have done are reasonable try's, but to say after them that you now know some likelihood in my opinion is misguided. The ones who think that we have some 'likelihood' measure are the ones that are deluding themselves

There were a lot of responses to my argument/philosophy in a negative manner. I shoulder part of the blame for not choosing the correct wording, but the snide personal attacks/choosing to attack the weaker version of what I intended (when I think some could realize) was just flabbergasting. When someone can approach me, and show that this "likelihood" was derived through a valid test then I'll thank them, and move on from it. Until they do they can just pound sand for all I care.
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31-10-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: Choices
(31-10-2014 12:40 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  When were speaking of an after-life though we don't even know how to measure the probability. We aren't sure that the test we do are even valid. I don't think the probability is 50/50, I think we have no fucking clue what it is at this time.

As identity is a function of decision space limited by environment, that probability is essentially zero.

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