Christ/Horus
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12-06-2016, 05:30 AM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2016 07:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Christ/Horus
(11-06-2016 10:56 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It's implicit in you diatribes Bucky...you want to show off and you hate anyone who has a different view from you. You ridicule me to boost you ego

Wrong
I ridicule your dot connecting as it's utter bullshit, and you are totally unable to support it with REAL historical references. All assertions, no data, or references.
NO SCHOLAR ON EARTH agrees with you.
Your fake "linguistics" is basically the same thing as "Bible code".

Knowing a few languages does not make one a "linguist". And WTF ? Listing a few family members who knew a few languages is totally irrelevant.
You're sounding as desperate as your posts appear. If you bullshit held any water, you would be publishing it. Instead, you're relegating to dropping your crap here, as NO ONE else
would have your garbage.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-06-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: Christ/Horus
Many things connect between the myth of Horus and the myth of Jesus, but I wouldn't know if the myths are connected linguistically.
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12-06-2016, 09:12 PM
RE: Christ/Horus
(11-06-2016 10:55 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Hmmm...

I speak English French Spanish and am studying Turkish and I have studied Scots English. My brother studied Russian French German Spanish Chinese (degree) a and Welsh. My Uncle is A professor who has published with the Voltaire Institut and I published a translation of a medical work recently in collaboration with him from French so I come from a family if linguist and studied languages as a result from an early age while a lot of people were mired in beliefs about Jesus and god

What your relatives have been educated in is of no relevance.

None of your stated language knowledge is actually relevant to the dot-connecting you attempt - it is neither linguistics nor ancient languages.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2016, 09:48 AM
RE: Christ/Horus
(12-06-2016 09:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 10:55 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Hmmm...

I speak English French Spanish and am studying Turkish and I have studied Scots English. My brother studied Russian French German Spanish Chinese (degree) a and Welsh. My Uncle is A professor who has published with the Voltaire Institut and I published a translation of a medical work recently in collaboration with him from French so I come from a family if linguist and studied languages as a result from an early age while a lot of people were mired in beliefs about Jesus and god

What your relatives have been educated in is of no relevance.

None of your stated language knowledge is actually relevant to the dot-connecting you attempt - it is neither linguistics nor ancient languages.


I studied languages as my minor at university. I have translated for professors at the University of Paris. I studied classical political theory as my degree and it was about this particular field because I studied in a Jesuit led faculty. That qualifies me. I have studied languages all my life. I only mention my family because that is the background I come from. My parents had a copy of the Durants' Story of Civilization in our living room and I grew up reading it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization

The approach taken in that work is one which I follow and I would recommend you read it, as I did.
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14-06-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Christ/Horus
There are ta number of points of interest, in my opinion, which I intend would like to discuss:

1. Were the monotheists who came to be referred to as the "Hebrews" from Armenia as stated by Josephus?

2. Were these people the same people who J. M. Roberts says arrived by sea and became the pyramid building Pharoahs whose god was Horus?

3. Is Horus represented by the star sign of Orion?

4. Is this the cult/religion into which "Christ" is said to have been born?

In relation to the third question, I have found a very good summary of why Horus is Orion:

ORION IS THE ICONOGRAPHIC IMAGE OF THE GOD HORUS

Texts referring to the god Horus (additional explanations)
Indications, references, and texts are listed in points 1 to 18 below (in random sequence):
In the Dictionary of Scientific Biography, Vol.XV, supplement I, Egyptologist R. Parker wrote a summary, titled Egyptian Astronomy, Astrology, and Calendrical Reckoning (p.706 to 727). In this publication, he describes in broad outline the particular development of the calendrical reckoning by the ancient Egyptians, based on their astronomical knowledge. On page 711, Parker writes: “At some time before [pharaoh] Unas, then, but after the civil calendar was adopted, another unknown Egyptian astronomer devised a scheme to divide the night into parts by using the apparent movement of the stars. We know that this apparent movement is due to the rotation of the Earth on its axis and its travel about the sun. He did not. For him the stars did rise, traverse the sky, and set, like the other heavenly bodies. He had studied the stars and had grouped many of them into constellations to which he gave names such as Nakht = Nht = Strong Arm (Giant), Reret (Hippopotamus), Sah (Orion), Meskhetiu (Foreleg of Adze, the Big Dipper)”.
If Parker is right on this point, the Pyramid Texts are based merely upon the following four constellations: Nakht = Nht = Strong Arm (Giant), Sah (Orion), the constellation that belongs to the warlike group (Horus), Reret (Hippopotamus), and Meskhetiu, the constellation that belongs to the group of circumpolar stars (Seth).
Further Plutarch explained: “Moreover, they record that in the books attributed to Hermes it is written in regard to the sacred names, that they call the power, which is assigned to direct the revolution of the Sun, Horus” (Isis and Osiris, 61, Plutarch). So, Horus is the power and not the Sun or Sun-god! The following points 1 to 18 explain the allocation of Horus and his relation to Orion.
1) In Études de Nautique Egyptienne by Charles Boreux, p. 110, one finds the characteristic hieroglyph T15, which, according to Egyptologist Boreux, represents the western delta, the region that is the homeland of Horus.
2) In Kingship and the Gods, Henry Frankfort, p. 87, one can read: “The procession moves to the chapel of Horus of Libya, who lifts his arm.”
3) In Le Secret des bâtisseurs des grandes Pyramides Khéops, George Goyon writes on p.89: “Le monument doit être placé sous la protection astrale du dieu Horus, Seigneur de Khem (Létopolis).” Translation: “The monument must be marked out [determining the location] under the protection [or with the help] of the god Horus, Lord of Khem.” Horus presided (meaning: to sit on the throne or chair) at Khem. “In order to orientate the pyramid towards the sacred place Khem, the astronomers determined the true north by means of a fixed star, the Polar Star” [between 3,050 and 2,850 BCE: the star alpha Draconis] (ibid, p.89).
4) The constellation Lepus has the form of a chair; the star Arneb is the uppermost star of the central chair leg, which is known as the Chair of the Giant and the Throne of Jauzah (Star Names, Hinckley Allen, p.265). The name Arneb is derived from the Greek word Arnebeschènis, which means that Horus presides over Letopolis (LÄ III, col.41, 42, see also LÄ II, col. 998f Harnebeschinis).
5) The Copts called Orion the star [the constellation] of Horus (LÄ IV, col.609).
6) The term Gizeh stands for Orion (see my explanation above). See also The Great Pyramid by Piazzi Smyth, p. 4 and Star Names, Hinckley Allen, p. 307.
7) “Horus as Orion” and “Orion was the soul of Horus” (Life in Ancient Egypt, Erman, p. 271 and 348). “Orion was the soul of Horus”, (see also Isis and Osiris, Plutarch, p. 53). Remark: after Osiris had been killed by Seth, Horus succeeded his father Osiris. The constellation Scorpio is diametrically opposite to Orion. When Orion rises – is born – on the eastern horizon, the constellation Scorpio (Osiris) disappears – dies – below the western horizon, where the underworld and the world of death (the West) assumedly began. Osiris was, par excellence, the God of Death, Rebirth, and the Netherworld). During his lifetime, the Pharaoh was Horus, and after his death he became Osiris.
8) “… and its course lies not far from that of Orion and the Dog-star; of these the Egyptians believe that one is sacred to Horus and the other to Isis.”(Isis and Osiris, Plutarch, p. 55)
9) In Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch/Deutsch by the German Egyptologist Hannig, page 857, 3rd line, one can find a synonym for Horus as follows:
epit-d.-Horus
I believe that this shows the ‘strong arm’ in combination with the ‘throwstick’ and a casing-stone from a pyramid. That latter hieroglyph is nowadays translated as ‘sandy hill’, which I consider to be incorrect.
10) “The Ready Fighter, Horus who is over the stars of the sky”; see Pyramid Texts, Faulkner, par.449, and note 7, which literally quotes: ‘fighter with the arm.’
11)”I worship Min, I extol arm-raising Horus.” (Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol.I, Lichtheim, p.204)
12) “[…], just as Horus, who presides over Khem [Letopolis], lives“ (Pyramid Texts, Faulkner, par. 910) and at explanation: “[…], as with the throwsticks [hieroglyph T 15] of Him [Horus] who presides over Khem“ (ibid. Faulkner, par. 908). The battle-axe, or club, was the characteristic item by which Horus was recognized. (Etudes de Nautique Egyptienne, Boreux, p. 110)
13) In the sacred temple city of Letopolis, the 14 shoulder blades of the god Osiris are kept as venerated relics. These 14 parts correspond to 11 pyramids, Abu Rawash, Gizeh (3x), Zawjet el Aryan (2x), Abusir (pyramid city 5th Dynasty), Sakkara (2x), and Dahshur (2x), and the 3 temple cities: Letopolis, Heliopolis, and Memphis (Die Cheopspyramide, Goyon, p. 249, note 111), amounting to a total of 14 parts. A text at Denderah says that the figure consists of 14 parts, whereas other texts mention 16. The pyramids Meidum and Seila are the 2 parts that fill out the difference.
14) “Horus was the great god, Lord of the sky”, and “we grant strength to thine arm.” (The Triumph of Horus, Fairman, p. 90)
15) On the ceiling of the entrance to the hypostyle room at Denderah, we see the rectangular zodiac, on which the Horus-falcon on his standard (papyrus column, hieroglyph M13) is shown, which is placed between the heavenly cow Sirius and Orion. This indicates that Horus ruled the central sector of the sky (width: 42º), from the star Alhena to the star Algol/the Pleiades (see Sterrenbeeld van Horus (Egypt: ‘Image of Heaven’), fig. 6 and Ch.4).
16) The Pyramid texts by Faulkner, par. 1089; 1285; 1373; and 1507, mention a girdle or the wearing of a girdle as follows: “I am girt with the girdle of Horus”; “You have relieved Horus of his girdle”; “I am girded as Horus”; “The pharaoh [is said to have gone out] from his house girded as Horus.“
The red granite architrave of pharaoh Sahure can be seen in the Egyptian Museum in Berlin. The name of Sahure in the architrave consists of three hieroglyphs (see Hiërogliefen lezen, p. 51, K.Zauzich). The middle hieroglyph is D61 (Eg.Gr., Gardiner) and, according to Egyptologist K. Locher, it represents the head of Orion. On several lids of sarcophagi, he appears to wear it as a crown; it was the customary way to adorn deities with his or her characteristic ideogram. The belt or girdle of Orion is the most characteristic part of the constellation Orion, and I therefore venture to suggest that the resembling hieroglyph D61 may be an accessory: a buckle or an indiscernible pin by which a loincloth or belt is fixed or tightened. The pictured object shows three teeth that are connected at the bottom by a strip. On the left side of this strip, there is a small cord in the shape of an eye. On closer examination of the picture, the three teeth appear to be linked together by a similar cord which could be used to pull or connect something. There are also versions with two and with four teeth (see New arguments for the celestial location of the decanal belt and for the origin of the S3h hieroglyph, p. 281, Locher).
These suppositions would mean that Sah is not the toe-star Rigel of Orion, and that D61 represents the belt of Orion. The waist is known as the belt of Orion and the reference to “Horus who wears the belt” would mean that Horus represents Orion.
Remark: The pyramid of Abu Rawash is called “The pyramid which is the Sehedu-star” (Atlas van het oude Egypte, Baines en Malek, p. 140). Hence, the toe-star Rigel is the Sehedu-star, because a projection of the constellation Orion onto the pyramid field shows that this star correlates with the pyramid of Abu Rawash. The name of the northern pyramid at Zawjet el Aryan of pharaoh Baka also refers to a star, according to an inscription on the wall made by a team of workmen: “Baka is a star” (De Ibis 23, 1998 no.3, p.106). These stars mark the astronomical “main outline” between the giant stars Rigel and Betelgeuse of the constellation Orion (The Atlas of the Universe, P.Moore, p. 216).
17) An image of the northern sky, portrayed on the ceiling of the temple of Senmut, shows Horus holding a spear. The temple of Horus at Edfu was built to commemorate the Triumph of Horus over Seth, and it was measured out on August 23rd, 237 BCE (III Smw 7, year 10 of Ptolemy III, on the sixth day of the Moon-month; Calendars, Parker, par. 102), On that day, the constellation Orion (the stars Nu Orion, Betelgeuse and Saiph) was located on the primus verticalis (first meridian) exactly in the south, while Kochab with Pherkad of the constellation Ursa Minor, and eta Draconis, were also on the primus verticalis, (first meridian) yet exactly in the north. We know from inscriptions in the temple that the building was measured out – stretching the cord – in exact alignment with the four cardinal points of the compass by observing Orion and Ursa Major (De Ibis 26, 2001 no.2, p. 55). My astronomical investigations show that the inclusion of Ursa Major is incorrect; it is Ursa Minor, which is meant. It appears that Orion (Horus with the spear) must keep control over stars in the polar region (i.e. circumpolar stars near the earth’s axis), in order to ensure the continuity of humanity’s earthly existence (threatened by Seth). I believe that Seth symbolically is the star Alcor, which is located near the star Mizar (zeta Ursa Major) in Ursa Major; the Roman poet Ovid revealingly called that star Atlantis. According to the Roman Hyginus, this star Alcor left its location in the Pleiades as a comet or falling star and assumed a new position near the star Mizar; this led to a catastrophe on earth (Star Names, Hinckley Allen, p. 406 and p. 445-446, and Hamlett’s Mill, de Santillana and von Dechend, p. 385). Uta-napishtim, builder of the houseboat MA.GUR, (Die Sterne von Babylon, Papke, p.148-152) managed to escape this catastrophe, which was known as Era or Irra-Epos.
Remark concerning the current translation of hieroglyph F23 (mshtyw) as “the constellation Ursa Major”; however F23 may also refer to “ the constellation Ursa Minor”, since the orientation of the Horus-temple at Edfu was based on Ursa Minor, not on Ursa Major. Egyptologist Borchardt also held the opinion that Ursa Minor had the form of the Adze. (The Pyramid Texts in Translation and Commentaries, Lauer, op.cit. p. 106, footnote 1)
18) Pyramid Text §956-959 is an iconographical text, in which Orion is definitely and indisputably brought into relation with Horus. Approximately 1,500 years after the Pyramid Texts were written, pharaoh Ramesses II ordered Pyramid Text §959 to be displayed as a wall relief in the temple of Abu Simbel. Abu Simbel was the southern gate to Egypt (see picture Fig.7a or Kingship and the Gods, Frankfort, fig. 10).
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14-06-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Christ/Horus
Regarding the relationship between Horus, Christianity and St. George, I have found the following article from the Louvre museum site in relation to the figure of Horus on horseback:

Egyptian Antiquities
Christian Egypt (fourth - twelfth centuries AD)
Author(s):
Meurice Cédric
This object was obviously designed as part of a window. The subject of the sculpture is highly original and reflects the blending of Egyptian and Greco-Roman traditions. A horseman, who is none other than the god Horus, is stabbing his spear into a crocodile, the animal that symbolized the god Setekh. This strange combat represents the victory of Good over Evil.
A fragment of a window
Egyptian deities were never portrayed on horseback. This representation, which dates from the fourth century AD, reflects the influence of Greco-Roman models and of the Christian symbolism of Good conquering Evil. The scene in question is complete, although the object itself is not: it was undoubtedly part of a window, of which only the left part remains, with a section of molded frame. Several of the components of the scene (the horse's head and the crocodile's mouth) are joined to the frame for both technical and artistic reasons, contributing, with the sculpted scrolls, to the liveliness of the scene.
Horus on horseback
The god Horus, a man with a hawk's head, is dressed like a Roman soldier. He is portrayed in full profile, on a horse which is also in profile with its head turned full face. Horus is sitting on a saddle attached by a bellyband to his richly appointed mount. He is controlling his steed with his left hand and holding a spear in his right (the hand is missing). He is about to stab a crocodile, which is pinned between the horse's forelegs and under his own left foot (which is not in its stirrup). The horse appears to be looking down at the crocodile, while the latter's wide open eye reflects his sorry plight. The horse's position and bearing, and the god's calm assurance, contrast with the slumped body and hunched legs of the crocodile.
The precursor of St. George
According to Egyptian mythology, the god Setekh murdered his brother Osiris. Horus, the son of Osiris, avenged his father's death by killing Setekh. The episode is depicted here with all the symbolism and freedom of expression proper to the Greco-Roman period. The iconography of the horseman overcoming Evil with his spear was widespread throughout the Christian period: representations of St. George, in particular, are direct descendants of objects such as this. It should be added that the present work does not actually portray a fight, as the crocodile and horse are facing the same way. Horus has caught up with Setekh, who adopts the form of a crocodile to escape his nephew; this ruse, however, will not be enough to save his life.
Bibliography
Rutschowscaya M.-H., La sculpture copte, Musée du Louvre, Petits guides des grands musées 84, p. 5.
Chevaux et cavaliers arabes dans les arts d'Orient et d'Occident, Paris, 2002, p. 20 et n 22.
Bénazeth D., "La sculpture copte", Dossiers d'archéologie 226, sept 1997, p. 28 et ill. p. 29.

http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/horus-horseback
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14-06-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Christ/Horus
(14-06-2016 09:48 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 09:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  What your relatives have been educated in is of no relevance.

None of your stated language knowledge is actually relevant to the dot-connecting you attempt - it is neither linguistics nor ancient languages.


I studied languages as my minor at university. I have translated for professors at the University of Paris. I studied classical political theory as my degree and it was about this particular field because I studied in a Jesuit led faculty. That qualifies me. I have studied languages all my life. I only mention my family because that is the background I come from. My parents had a copy of the Durants' Story of Civilization in our living room and I grew up reading it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization

The approach taken in that work is one which I follow and I would recommend you read it, as I did.

Whether any of that is true or not, your dot-connecting is still generally specious.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2016, 12:49 PM
RE: Christ/Horus
TL; DR DeltaBravo. Where's your published paper, Mr Well-Qualified who says that not much is published in your chosen field?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-06-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: Christ/Horus
This still never gets to any point of what it would mean. Or if it would signify anything.. there is huge cross cultural religious godly influence. All these regions you have here are largely still connected geographically and articulated thusly in studies.

but that info is also awkward, of course there are SO MANY version and retellings and reversions of the mythology, maybe in a grecco-roman influenced version it was that way but normally the Oisris-Isis=Horus vs Seth contrast doesn't have Horus killing Seth. They in the end both remain as contrasting deities of the Egyptian mythological landscape.

As for Orion, he is as well in a similar fashion seen as those stars of a shape of a man, but in the Grecco-Roman he is a warrior but the more Arab regions he was noted as a figure of harvesting, a more agricultural icon vs the war like icon of Greece. And he's even known to be connected to other Gods besides these of Horus in Egyptian lore, but that's the point of time, you get your periods of time where other gods rise and wan in popularity and connect to eachother or spread into other regions. It's not anything static, it's always going to be dynamic especially because mostly this is passed down through shifts of time when it was written in x places while others a few miles away may of had shrines of other named gods of the same legends.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-06-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Christ/Horus
(14-06-2016 09:48 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 09:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  What your relatives have been educated in is of no relevance.

None of your stated language knowledge is actually relevant to the dot-connecting you attempt - it is neither linguistics nor ancient languages.


I studied languages as my minor at university. I have translated for professors at the University of Paris. I studied classical political theory as my degree and it was about this particular field because I studied in a Jesuit led faculty. That qualifies me. I have studied languages all my life. I only mention my family because that is the background I come from. My parents had a copy of the Durants' Story of Civilization in our living room and I grew up reading it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization

The approach taken in that work is one which I follow and I would recommend you read it, as I did.

Good for you. Doesn't make you a lingust, an historian, or an expert in anything.
Josephus repeated the entire, (and now debunked) "history" of the Jews in the Old Testament. He is totally unreliable, (as are you).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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