Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
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13-05-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
(13-05-2015 10:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I though the article was good, and your response was poor.

Every belief, entails a lack of belief it's antithesis. I lack a belief in ontological naturalism, in reductionism, in subjective morality. I lack a belief that we are a product of an unguided process, a product of fortuitous chance, etc... I lack a belief that God's are merely imaginary or delusions.

I could sit here and argue that those who believe other wise have the burden of proof to convince me of these things. Would I be wrong in saying the burden of proofs falls on them, since I just lack a belief on these things?

Or does someone see the dishonesty on my part here?

I have to say Tomasia, you do have a lot of stamina. I don't know how you keep up with all the debates with all the atheists on the forum. Even though I don't always agree with you--u r tenacious I will give you that. Smile Do you drink a bottle of Gatorade before you come on here Consider Tongue

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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13-05-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
I can't help but wonder whether this asshat even actually talked to any atheists/agnostics for this or whether he just made shit up. I am pretty sure it is the latter.

Quote:They deny God exists, which is why they are called atheists.

Wow, I sure am glad he told me this. I had no idea that is what I was doing. It seems to be so absurd to "deny" something that has no evidence in it's favor. Idiot.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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13-05-2015, 10:45 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
(13-05-2015 10:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I though the article was good, and your response was poor.

Every belief, entails a lack of belief it's antithesis. I lack a belief in ontological naturalism, in reductionism, in subjective morality. I lack a belief that we are a product of an unguided process, a product of fortuitous chance, etc... I lack a belief that God's are merely imaginary or delusions.

I could sit here and argue that those who believe other wise have the burden of proof to convince me of these things. Would I be wrong in saying the burden of proofs falls on them, since I just lack a belief on these things?

Or does someone see the dishonesty on my part here?

The main point of the article was that if atheists simply lack a belief in God, and say that the burden of proof is on the theist, then atheists shouldn't care about the debate at all. Why continue to debate about something that doesn't matter to you?

Unfortunately, the article is missing a major part of the equation. If I told you that fairies exist, you might roll your eyes, shake your head, and mutter "idiot" under your breath. But consider that I get more aggressive at it:

- hand you a piece of paper with an essay that claims there are fairies.
- tell you that if you don't believe in fairies, the fairies will cause you to disintegrate.
- try and try and try to convince you that fairies exist, and nonbelief causes doom to your existence.
- convince your friends and family that fairies exist
- get your converted friends and family to convince you to believe in fairies

It at least raises the likeliness that you will care somewhat about this claim to the point that you will either become a believer yourself or enter a debate defending your nonbelief in fairies.
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13-05-2015, 10:48 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
(13-05-2015 10:45 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 10:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I though the article was good, and your response was poor.

Every belief, entails a lack of belief it's antithesis. I lack a belief in ontological naturalism, in reductionism, in subjective morality. I lack a belief that we are a product of an unguided process, a product of fortuitous chance, etc... I lack a belief that God's are merely imaginary or delusions.

I could sit here and argue that those who believe other wise have the burden of proof to convince me of these things. Would I be wrong in saying the burden of proofs falls on them, since I just lack a belief on these things?

Or does someone see the dishonesty on my part here?

The main point of the article was that if atheists simply lack a belief in God, and say that the burden of proof is on the theist, then atheists shouldn't care about the debate at all. Why continue to debate about something that doesn't matter to you?

Unfortunately, the article is missing a major part of the equation. If I told you that fairies exist, you might roll your eyes, shake your head, and mutter "idiot" under your breath. But consider that I get more aggressive at it:

- hand you a piece of paper with an essay that claims there are fairies.
- tell you that if you don't believe in fairies, the fairies will cause you to disintegrate.
- try and try and try to convince you that fairies exist, and nonbelief causes doom to your existence.
- convince your friends and family that fairies exist
- get your converted friends and family to convince you to believe in fairies

It at least raises the likeliness that you will care somewhat about this claim to the point that you will either become a believer yourself or enter a debate defending your nonbelief in fairies.

Tomasia isn't really getting to that point. He's trying to show, albeit strangely, that his lack of belief that a God is merely imaginary or delusions is a negative claim and doesn't require any evidence for his "lack of belief" in that method. Does this mean those that believe God is merely imaginary or a delusion is required to prove this now?

It's a strange word game.
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13-05-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
Shifting of burden of proof. Nice.

I'm not an anti-theist. This states that I have to defend the ant-theist position. No, I don't. I don't hold that position. I simply hold tha the theist has not given a good reason to believe. That's all. Does god exist? I don't know, I have no good concept of what those words mean. And, here is the damning part, NO ONE HAS BEEN WILLING TO EXPLAIN IT.
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13-05-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
(13-05-2015 10:50 AM)natachan Wrote:  Shifting of burden of proof. Nice.

I'm not an anti-theist. This states that I have to defend the ant-theist position. No, I don't. I don't hold that position. I simply hold tha the theist has not given a good reason to believe. That's all. Does god exist? I don't know, I have no good concept of what those words mean. And, here is the damning part, NO ONE HAS BEEN WILLING TO EXPLAIN IT.

How can you prove a delusion is true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_delusion

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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13-05-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
(13-05-2015 10:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I though the article was good, and your response was poor.

Every belief, entails a lack of belief it's antithesis. I lack a belief in ontological naturalism, in reductionism, in subjective morality. I lack a belief that we are a product of an unguided process, a product of fortuitous chance, etc... I lack a belief that God's are merely imaginary or delusions.

I could sit here and argue that those who believe other wise have the burden of proof to convince me of these things. Would I be wrong in saying the burden of proofs falls on them, since I just lack a belief on these things?

Or does someone see the dishonesty on my part here?

So what are you saying, that we should view religious discussions as being purely in the world of dialectics and that talking about proof and evidence is not applicable here? I'm not a philosopher and I'm new to being an atheist/agnostic myself. But it appears you are saying that we are like 2 ships passing in the night, that we're not even on the same page or that we are speaking different languages and are not conversing using the same language.

If I understand you correctly, then the only real recourse out there is to show how the biblical writings are incorrect or lacking in logic. But therein lies the issue, especially if you are talking to Catholics, Orthodox and some of the churches that began in during the reformation. It's the get out of jail free card. If you prove that Noah's flood didn't happen as written, then it's allegory. Adam and Eve make no sense given what we know about evolution and genetics? Allegory. The statements that the earliest biblical characters were said to have lived for hundreds and hundreds of years? Allegory. The notion that 2 million Israelites were not enslaved by the Egyptians, wandered the desert for 40 years (a common recurring numeric theme btw), was then led by Joshua after Moses's death and then he subsequently conquered Canaanite city states? Interestingly enough, still thought as factual; however, more and more people are moving it to - something that's allegorical?

And this is where I see the issues. When you keep it on an abstract level, you can use dialectics pretty effectively to show it's rational to believe in "A God" who created the universe and all inhabitants (unknown aside from those on earth) that largely corresponds with the laws of the universe as we know them. However, as you start adding more details about God, you move outside the realm of pure philosophy and get down into more tangible things that can be reviewed through scientific analysis (dating methods) and what I would call the forensic disciplines of archaeology, textual criticism and reviewing the historical documents and cultures of other peoples contemporary to the Jews...you creep into the realm of positivism. Again, not a philosopher but these are the challenges I see with all of this.
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13-05-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
Here is the problem as I see it. I'm going to create a theoretical object, and I'm going to call that object "God"

Create object = "God"
Characteristics = [creativity, agency, ?]
Abilities = [ ? ]
/end object "God"

Now I have a theoretical object that I have slapped with the label "God". The problem is this is too vague. This object could be anything. It could be a bluejay, or a person, or a complex computer program. And this is ALL I have been able to pin theists down on. Because I am using language that is very clear (to me at least) and by necessity very specific I need those sets filled in before I can begin to have any discussion.

So to theists, you need to start by defining your terms before you even attempt to talk about proof.
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13-05-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
(13-05-2015 10:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I though the article was good, and your response was poor.

Every belief, entails a lack of belief it's antithesis. I lack a belief in ontological naturalism, in reductionism, in subjective morality. I lack a belief that we are a product of an unguided process, a product of fortuitous chance, etc... I lack a belief that God's are merely imaginary or delusions.

If I were to attempt to convince you of any of those, I would present the available evidence. The evidence has, in fact, been available to you but you seem to resist even looking at it.

Quote:I could sit here and argue that those who believe other wise have the burden of proof to convince me of these things. Would I be wrong in saying the burden of proofs falls on them, since I just lack a belief on these things?

That is correct.

Quote:Or does someone see the dishonesty on my part here?

No, it's just good to see you finally get it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-05-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: Christian Article: Do Atheists Lack Belief in God?
I always hated the connotation there. It's a technically accurate phrasing, but there's an implication of needing something one doesn't have that I disagree with.

I am ABSENT a belief in a god or gods.

I do not LACK a belief in gods. I might LACK enough gas to get over the hills if I want to drive into the valley. I might LACK enough money to pay for lunch. A fundamentalist Christian might LACK a sense of humor.

But I lack a belief in gods the way I lack a malignant tumor. Which is to say: I don't. I'm just fine without it, thankyouverymuch.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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