"Christian Atheists"
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25-01-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 01:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  But, doesn't the definition of Christianity make it mutually exclusive from atheism (by definition)?

A Jewish atheist would be somebody who practices Jewish culture while not believing in a god. I don't quite see it the same because I've always understood that Jewish culture/heritage and Judaism are separate. Do people ever talk about atheistic Judaism? Really, I don't know the answer to that.

Buddhist atheism seems more like a technical term than a position. In that not all forms (or maybe most or all forms?) of Buddhism involve belief in a deity, so technically they are atheist. So one could say I am Buddhist and my beliefs don't involve a deity, so technically I am atheist as well.

But to say one is Christian, how can you tack on, "but also I am atheist"? That's like saying, "I am shorter than 4 feet, but also taller than 4 feet". The two definitions don't mesh. You could say you believe a figure named Jesus existed, and he had a few nice things to say that you believe are true, but you don't believe he was the son of god or that a god exists. But what is Christian about that?

I think so, the term is misleading, I would prefer to use a term like Confucianism, since he put forth the idea of reciprocity; The Golden Rule, over 500 years before Jesus.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-01-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
I'm fine with people labeling themselves any way they want or feel comfortable with. It's my understanding (like others have mentioned) that it's a tradition thing. For instance, I was raised Catholic. I still celebrate religious holidays like Christmas and Easter with my family, I also go to midnight mass on Christmas Eve. But obviously as an atheist I don't believe in any of the woo. As such, I could technically call myself a catholic atheist. I personally prefer to call myself an atheist, but if another person felt like using the catholic term in addition, I think it's a fair label to use if it's how they view themselves.
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25-01-2016, 02:04 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 01:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-01-2016 01:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  But, doesn't the definition of Christianity make it mutually exclusive from atheism (by definition)?

Why should it? It's basically just a code of ethics without admitting any divine inspiration of said ethics.

(25-01-2016 01:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  A Jewish atheist would be somebody who practices Jewish culture while not believing in a god. I don't quite see it the same because I've always understood that Jewish culture/heritage and Judaism are separate. Do people ever talk about atheistic Judaism? Really, I don't know the answer to that.

Aliza has spoken of it several times.

(25-01-2016 01:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Buddhist atheism seems more like a technical term than a position. In that not all forms (or maybe most or all forms?) of Buddhism involve belief in a deity, so technically they are atheist. So one could say I am Buddhist and my beliefs don't involve a deity, so technically I am atheist as well.

How is that any different from a Christian atheist?

(25-01-2016 01:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  But to say one is Christian, how can you tack on, "but also I am atheist"? That's like saying, "I am shorter than 4 feet, but also taller than 4 feet". The two definitions don't mesh. You could say you believe a figure named Jesus existed, and he had a few nice things to say that you believe are true, but you don't believe he was the son of god or that a god exists. But what is Christian about that?

The fact that the code of ethics ascribed to Jesus is central to their way of living. I really don't see any inconsistencies here.

The term is, at-best, confused.

It is a cherry-picked and baseless code of ethics.
Once the divine and the magic have been removed, there is nothing unique or original left.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 01:59 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm fine with people labeling themselves any way they want or feel comfortable with. It's my understanding (like others have mentioned) that it's a tradition thing. For instance, I was raised Catholic. I still celebrate religious holidays like Christmas and Easter with my family, I also go to midnight mass on Christmas Eve. But obviously as an atheist I don't believe in any of the woo. As such, I could technically call myself a catholic atheist. I personally prefer to call myself an atheist, but if another person felt like using the catholic term in addition, I think it's a fair label to use if it's how they view themselves.
But under what definition would you still be considered catholic?

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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25-01-2016, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2016 02:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 01:55 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I think so, the term is misleading,

The term is misleading. I think it is meant to be provocative.

(25-01-2016 01:55 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I would prefer to use a term like Confucianism, since he put forth the idea of reciprocity; The Golden Rule, over 500 years before Jesus.

I think Hammurabi and the ancient Egyptian Goddess Ma'at codified it some 2000 years before Jesus. The ancient Greeks also preempted Jesus by some 500 years.

#sigh
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25-01-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 01:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The fact that the code of ethics ascribed to Jesus is central to their way of living. I really don't see any inconsistencies here.

Have you checked out the Skeptics Annotated Bible:

biblical cruelties

Not only does the idea of hell originate with christ, he is quoted as condoning the atrocities of the old testament.

Also, as noted by a previous poster, the concept of the "golden rule" is much older than christ. It is a concept that has been re-invented, independently, by many cultures throughout human history.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-01-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 01:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-01-2016 01:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  But, doesn't the definition of Christianity make it mutually exclusive from atheism (by definition)?

Why should it? It's basically just a code of ethics without admitting any divine inspiration of said ethics.
Because most definitions of Christianity look something like this:
Quote:Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of humanity whose coming as Christ or the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament
The definitions include belief in a god which isn't cooperative to an atheist stance.

Quote:Aliza has spoken of it several times.
I've heard her mention atheist jews, but never atheistic judaism. I'll have to ask her for clarity.

Quote:How is that any different from a Christian atheist?
My thought is that Buddhism isn't defined including a belief in a god, so it isn't incompatible with atheism.

Quote:The fact that the code of ethics ascribed to Jesus is central to their way of living. I really don't see any inconsistencies here.
But that isn't Christianity, is it? If I thought Muhammed was all that and a bag of potato chips (in his actions and values) but I didn't believe any magical/theistic claims about him, would that make me an atheist Muslim? Just because I liked the guy or what he stood for? At best I could see it being "an atheist who appreciates the values taught by several figures mentioned in religious texts."

I don't mean to get too "no true scotsman"-ish, but it seems fairly widely accepted that to be a Christian involves believing in a deity (THE deity). I don't think I could find a person IRL who would say otherwise. Now obviously that's not evidence, but it seems very life-of-pi ish. And my mind just screams contradiction trying to reconcile the two unless you redefine one or the other.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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25-01-2016, 02:45 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2016 02:50 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 02:23 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't mean to get too "no true scotsman"-ish, but it seems fairly widely accepted that to be a Christian involves believing in a deity (THE deity).

Really? There are many many different interpretations of Christianity. Jehova Witnesses "have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine." and there is no afterlife until the Armageddon and then only 144,000 will enter into heaven which ironically is located on Earth. The rest just simply cease to exist. There is no Hell. Only the abyss. Universal reconciliationists beleive that Jesus died for all of humanity's sins en toto regardless of how we behave or act. The Mormons do not accept the Trinity and replace it with polytheism and believe we are all gods in training and this is our proving grounds. And so on and on and on. Are these denominations not Christian? Why is the idea of Christian atheism any more bizarre than these?

#sigh
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25-01-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 02:11 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(25-01-2016 01:59 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm fine with people labeling themselves any way they want or feel comfortable with. It's my understanding (like others have mentioned) that it's a tradition thing. For instance, I was raised Catholic. I still celebrate religious holidays like Christmas and Easter with my family, I also go to midnight mass on Christmas Eve. But obviously as an atheist I don't believe in any of the woo. As such, I could technically call myself a catholic atheist. I personally prefer to call myself an atheist, but if another person felt like using the catholic term in addition, I think it's a fair label to use if it's how they view themselves.
But under what definition would you still be considered catholic?

Catholic in the sense that you still take part in religious tradition, yet no longer believe.
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25-01-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: "Christian Atheists"
(25-01-2016 02:23 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't mean to get too "no true scotsman"-ish, but it seems fairly widely accepted that to be a Christian involves believing in a deity (THE deity). I don't think I could find a person IRL who would say otherwise. Now obviously that's not evidence, but it seems very life-of-pi ish. And my mind just screams contradiction trying to reconcile the two unless you redefine one or the other.

If we as atheists, take exception when others attempt to redefine the definitions of atheism, then we cannot do the same with the definition of Christianity.

Every definition of christianity that I've ever heard includes the belief that christ was the son of god.

As an example, Thomas Jefferson believed that Christ was an admirable figure but not of divine origins. His personal bible that he modified is still preserved. He is considered a deist, but not a christian.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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