Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
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14-11-2013, 08:55 AM
Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
I've noticed that when Christian Creationists are arguing, they ask questions like "what caused the singularity in the Big Bang to expand?" when they ask those questions. They are changing viewpoints from Christian theist to secular Deist. The Bible never mentions a Big Bang, so they shouldn't argue about it if they still want to argue from a Christian viewpoint. Which I guess is understandable given how primitive the Bible is.
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14-11-2013, 09:59 AM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
I have a good friend that was convinced his motor bike would not start because the fuel (gas) had gone stale.
he read this on a bike forum.
as it was only left idle for 4 months, I called bullshit, shake the tank and it should be fine (my bike was idle for over 12 months and the fuel was still ok.
He emptied the tank and the fuel was a really muddy color and had lots of particulates (rust)
I said, see the stale fuel idea was wrong it is dirty fuel, but no, he still claimed stale fuel was a contributing factor along with the rust gunk dirty fuel.

After getting the tank inside de-rusted and coated it still would not start, turns out the fuel filter was clogged with muddy rust flakes (the real cause for the bike not starting).
So I say see the clogged filter was the real cause , not stale fuel, "maybe" he says, 'fuck maybe' I say , the cause was a dirty contaminated fuel and a clogged filter.
'I still think stale fuel was a contributing factor' he says !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, WTF

Some people will hold onto a notion and will not let it go, so frustrating.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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14-11-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
(14-11-2013 08:55 AM)Lawls Wrote:  I've noticed that when Christian Creationists are arguing, they ask questions like "what caused the singularity in the Big Bang to expand?" when they ask those questions. They are changing viewpoints from Christian theist to secular Deist. The Bible never mentions a Big Bang, so they shouldn't argue about it if they still want to argue from a Christian viewpoint. Which I guess is understandable given how primitive the Bible is.

I post a lot at a gaming forum that has a lot of atheists. A while back, someone started a thread called Is there a God?. In that thread, Frank made a rather good post about the difference between the theology they believe and the "sophisticated" crap they bring out when the skeptics start asking questions.

FrankTrollman Wrote:That depends on whether you're talking about what they actually say to each other and believe or whether you're talking about the "sophisticated theology" that they trot out when trying to win arguments against atheists. In their actual theologies, their God is in fact an active participant. Not just in the personal lives of individual believers, but in the day to day workings of literally every single thing everywhere. That is what expressions like "God willing" mean. The idea that God personally fucks with absolutely everything all the time and is in fact omnipresent and omnipotent and every single thing that ever happens no matter how inconsequential or important is in fact directly caused by God. So anything that happens, or could happen in the future, happens only because it is the Will of God that such a thing happens.

Now, you may have noticed that if that were true that you're living in a Skinner Box crafted by someone who literally knows every single thing you would choose when presented with any possible set of stimuli and crafts literally every piece of stimuli you experience for the express purpose of eliciting such a response. And while such a thing is not logically impossible or anything (albeit kind of depressing to contemplate), it is logically incompatible with any meaningful amount of the "free will" that Abrahamic religions constantly wank to. And the moment some Atheist points that out, the Christians and Muslims start busting out the "sophisticated theology".

The difference between regular theology (the actual crap they actually believe) and sophisticated theology is that the sophisticated theology is created for the purpose of being hard to refute by sophisticated people. That means that God instantly stops being a giant bearded leprechaun in the sky that has real effects in the real world and would thus be in some way testable to being a "God of the Gaps". That is: God stops having any and all traits that are in any way falsifiable and the things he (or possibly "it" depending on how "sophisticated" we're getting) controls or even effects are relegated to crap that is for whatever reason currently outside the reach of observation.

So while the actual theology version of God is someone who is a giant glowing bearded White dude who is going to purge the Earth in the "very near future" and lead all of his followers into a giant zombie dance (which is why Christians and Muslims have to be buried whole, so they can be backup dancers during the giant Thriller remake in the very near future), the "sophisticated" version of God only ever did or does anything very long ago, very far away, or in a manner so subtle or tiny that it is completely indistinguishable from not existing at all.

And no, I don't actually think they believe in the sophisticated theology version of their God, because it's trivial and unworthy of worship. The actual heavenly father that they actually talk about in their actual church services would actually be worthy of worship, but since it demonstrably does not exist they are forced to get increasingly "sophisticated" during any discussion with people who ask tough questions.

-Frank

(Before you accuse him of just being a troll, that's his actual surname. Tongue )
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14-11-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
Yeah. Pretty accurate, so far as I can tell.

Step 1: establish deism.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: conclude Christianity.
Step 4: profit.

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14-11-2013, 03:03 PM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
(14-11-2013 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yeah. Pretty accurate, so far as I can tell.

Step 1: establish deism.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: conclude Christianity.
Step 4: profit.

Yeah, that's the same basic and "tried and true" formula for Intelligent Design, so I guess it has that much going for it. While ID may be stupid, the meme does have a rather large fan base.
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15-11-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
I'm not clear as to what you're saying.

Are you saying that Creationists argue that God did the Big Bang or that they cannot argue the Big Bang without being deistic?

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15-11-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
(15-11-2013 10:27 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm not clear as to what you're saying.

Are you saying that Creationists argue that God did the Big Bang or that they cannot argue the Big Bang without being deistic?

"You can't prove God doesn't exist. Even if all of this is true (meaning science the BB and evolution) God is the one who set it all up. You don't know how the Big Bang came to be so 1) Therefore God and 2) Therefore the Christian God."

None of which is what the Bible says. This is what the OP is referring to. A biblical literalist has no leg to stand on except to plug their ears and shout "Lalala" over and over again. But someone who hops from God of the Gaps to a deistic interpretation and then back to the Christian god with no links between them is very frustrating.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-11-2013, 10:50 AM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
(15-11-2013 10:27 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm not clear as to what you're saying.

Are you saying that Creationists argue that God did the Big Bang or that they cannot argue the Big Bang without being deistic?

It's a classic King's...

1) Theist claims Jesus is lord and savior, God is creator, Genesis and all that.

2) Atheist says 'nah man the word is 4 billion years old the universe is 13.5, we know about the big bang, etc.

3) Theist argues about 'what came before the big bang?!' (ignoring that postulating God has the same problem) and basically makes the case that we can't know that there isn't a Deist god existing outside of the known universe.

4) Atheist concedes that like Russle's pot 'o tea it is impossible to prove the non-existence of a deist god.

----- and now here comes the leap -------

5) Theist claims that since you cannot disprove a deist god, therefore Jesus, Moses, Arks, Holy Trininity, w/e.

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15-11-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
(15-11-2013 10:50 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 10:27 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm not clear as to what you're saying.

Are you saying that Creationists argue that God did the Big Bang or that they cannot argue the Big Bang without being deistic?

It's a classic King's...

1) Theist claims Jesus is lord and savior, God is creator, Genesis and all that.

2) Atheist says 'nah man the word is 4 billion years old the universe is 13.5, we know about the big bang, etc.

3) Theist argues about 'what came before the big bang?!' (ignoring that postulating God has the same problem) and basically makes the case that we can't know that there isn't a Deist god existing outside of the known universe.

4) Atheist concedes that like Russle's pot 'o tea it is impossible to prove the non-existence of a deist god.

----- and now here comes the leap -------

5) Theist claims that since you cannot disprove a deist god, therefore Jesus, Moses, Arks, Holy Trininity, w/e.

Ahh, ok. Yeah, that's intellectual dishonesty.

I would leave that discussion as soon as I saw it going that route.

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15-11-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Christian Creationists change to a deistic view when arguing.
Yeah, I have a theist friend whom whenever we get into a debate about her religion I always have to feel out where she is in her thought process. She is a firm, hardline literalist, until I point out the errors of making her literal claims, then she just converts to it all being metaphor.

Example, yesterday we partially got into Noah’s arc. She used to be firm that it was an actual event, but never really wanted to discuss it much (for the obvious reason that you can’t actually defend it as a historical event). In our conversation yesterday, she defended it for awhile, but gave up the more points I made, even explaining to her creationist view points, whom she defended in the past without knowing what they actually say. I gave her details of creationist beliefs of the arc and pointed out all the problems.

This was too much for her, so she just started explaining how the original Hebrew could have said vastly different things. It could simply all have been metaphor, or bad translations into English. Perhaps in Hebrew it did not actually mean a boat, but a place of safety that God would protect from destruction, like a cave. I pointed out to her, it describes in detail the structure of the arc, that it’s made of gopher wood, and has three decks…and so on, giving more and more details that show, even if mistranslating a word or two from Hebrew it could not have been so far off in translation that it actually meant a cave, not a boat, (you know, a floating cave, if you just read the original Hebrew).

She was clearly grasping at straws at this point. But I pointed out to her, if you take that approach, that something as clearly explained as a literal boat in a flood filled with all of earth’s animals, could have just been a cave, then why believe any single thing in the bible. Maybe if you read the original Hebrew the destruction of Sodom and Gomorra was just a story about a little boy who tripped on an ant hill, perhaps Jonah and the Whale was just as story about Jonah catching a trout and it was really Jonah who ate the fish and not the other way around, but we just mistranslated it into English, or maybe Jesus didn’t get crucified by Romans, but just got a kind of bad sunburn.

But yeah, kind of the same idea. Once she started to have her points defeated she just adjusted to a completely incompatible belief system, ironically in order to save her own beliefs.

...
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