Christian Doctrine
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16-12-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
How does Jesus' dying in any way make up for the sins of anyone, let alone everyone? When someone does something bad, it takes either education or punishment to change their behavior for the better. In addition, they need to be truly sorry and sincerely mean never to do the bad thing again before there is any chance of making up for their errant (for lack of a better word) ways. God sees these sinners, wants them to change and do better, and then decides to send himself here to suffer and die (well, not really since God can't die). Where's the education or punishment? Where's the change in the sinners? How does this make any sense at all?

Moreover, why do we have sin in the first place? And no, it's not for free will. We don't have free will. True free will would allow us to do anything, but obviously we have limits to what we can do freely. So why wouldn't God place one additional limit to what we can choose and disallow the ability to sin. We would not be robots. We would still be able to choose whether to go to a movie or go to the grocery store or to have spaghetti for dinner instead of chicken. How is having sin something God wants (since he obviously could have created a universe without it)? Especially given that he supposed to know everything past, present, and future and therefore knows all the bad consequences of sin - natural disasters, diseases, disabilities, etc.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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16-12-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:39 PM)Impulse Wrote:  How does Jesus' dying in any way make up for the sins of anyone, let alone everyone? When someone does something bad, it takes either education or punishment to change their behavior for the better. In addition, they need to be truly sorry and sincerely mean never to do the bad thing again before there is any chance of making up for their errant (for lack of a better word) ways. God sees these sinners, wants them to change and do better, and then decides to send himself here to suffer and die (well, not really since God can't die). Where's the education or punishment? Where's the change in the sinners? How does this make any sense at all?

Moreover, why do we have sin in the first place? And no, it's not for free will. We don't have free will. True free will would allow us to do anything, but obviously we have limits to what we can do freely. So why wouldn't God place one additional limit to what we can choose and disallow the ability to sin. We would not be robots. We would still be able to choose whether to go to a movie or go to the grocery store or to have spaghetti for dinner instead of chicken. How is having sin something God wants (since he obviously could have created a universe without it)? Especially given that he supposed to know everything past, present, and future and therefore knows all the bad consequences of sin - natural disasters, diseases, disabilities, etc.

What are we not allowed to do that we are able to do physically.
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16-12-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:28 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:22 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Bzltyr

So God isn't omniscient since he isn't in hell if I understand your point?

Well, omniscient means all-knowing. Omnipresent means HE is everywhere. When Jesus casts Satan into Hell after the 1000 year reign of Christ God and His goodness will not be in Hell. It is sealed.

So not omnipresent. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-12-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:28 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:22 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Bzltyr

So God isn't omniscient since he isn't in hell if I understand your point?

Well, omniscient means all-knowing. Omnipresent means HE is everywhere. When Jesus casts Satan into Hell after the 1000 year reign of Christ God and His goodness will not be in Hell. It is sealed.

How can you know about what's going in a place where you aren't in all sense of the term? Thus there is things you wouldn't know thus you would not be omniscient if you aren't omnipresent in the first place.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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16-12-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:26 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:20 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Are you a Christian?

Why yes, Aliza, I am.

What brought you to TTA? Are you here to win souls?
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16-12-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:47 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:39 PM)Impulse Wrote:  How does Jesus' dying in any way make up for the sins of anyone, let alone everyone? When someone does something bad, it takes either education or punishment to change their behavior for the better. In addition, they need to be truly sorry and sincerely mean never to do the bad thing again before there is any chance of making up for their errant (for lack of a better word) ways. God sees these sinners, wants them to change and do better, and then decides to send himself here to suffer and die (well, not really since God can't die). Where's the education or punishment? Where's the change in the sinners? How does this make any sense at all?

Moreover, why do we have sin in the first place? And no, it's not for free will. We don't have free will. True free will would allow us to do anything, but obviously we have limits to what we can do freely. So why wouldn't God place one additional limit to what we can choose and disallow the ability to sin. We would not be robots. We would still be able to choose whether to go to a movie or go to the grocery store or to have spaghetti for dinner instead of chicken. How is having sin something God wants (since he obviously could have created a universe without it)? Especially given that he supposed to know everything past, present, and future and therefore knows all the bad consequences of sin - natural disasters, diseases, disabilities, etc.

What are we not allowed to do that we are able to do physically.
Why are you limiting to physically? We cannot fly without a machine. We cannot snap our fingers and pop on over to another country or planet. These are limits to our free will. You can't just arbitrarily remove them because they aren't within the realm of what's possible for us - their not being possible is precisely the point. Why is sin allowed to be possible? Care to actually answer the question now? Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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16-12-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:26 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Why yes, Aliza, I am.

What brought you to TTA? Are you here to win souls?

Well that would be nice. Paul went into Ephesus and told the truth. I am here telling the truth.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH and the light.
The TRUTH shall make you free.
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16-12-2016, 04:05 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:54 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:47 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  What are we not allowed to do that we are able to do physically.
Why are you limiting to physically? We cannot fly without a machine. We cannot snap our fingers and pop on over to another country or planet. These are limits to our free will. You can't just arbitrarily remove them because they aren't within the realm of what's possible for us - their not being possible is precisely the point. Why is sin allowed to be possible? Care to actually answer the question now? Consider

Come on, Impulse. Your argument against free-will is that you can't fly?
That is the weakest I have ever heard. You were doing so well there for awhile.

You asked "Why is sin allowed to be possible." Asked and answered.
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16-12-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:26 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Why yes, Aliza, I am.

What brought you to TTA? Are you here to win souls?

My pet hypothesis is that he's here because his friend Socialistview was getting his ignorant ass handed to him, so he (SV) called in what he considers apologetic intellectual firepower as backup.

He's certainly more interesting as a "chew toy" than SV has proved to be. Bz seems to at least make the attempt to avoid ignorance, which is a refreshing change after the crop of apologists we've had in here over the past few weeks!

You'll be pleased to learn that he appears to think the Torah has pretty much nothing to do with Christian morality. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-12-2016, 04:08 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:26 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Why yes, Aliza, I am.

What brought you to TTA? Are you here to win souls?

I have discussed with atheist for years. Most if not all do not understand and do not understand the Gospel. They make statements that are not correct Christian doctrine. I clear it up for them. My father-in-law was an atheist. When I first met him he rejected Christianity. I asked him why and he stated a number of things that were not Christian doctrine it was just what he thought it was. I told him the truth.
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