Christian Doctrine
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17-12-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:03 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  HIV/AIDS was not a plague sent by God but it did go through and kill many gays. The suicide rate is high. Lots of emotional problems. The facts are well known.

That has zero to do with homosexuality. It was only a "gay thing" in North America and Western Europe, due to a confluence of having been forced "underground" until the 70s (bathhouses, etc., instead of stable relationships), and one or a few gay flight attendants bringing it to the major cities of Europe and North America. Of course, as others--straight people-- continued to bring the disease over, it became about equal in the communities despite hitting the gays (here) first.

Everywhere else in the world, it's primarily a problem for straight people. Mostly straight people die from this disease every year.

Here in the USA, where homosexuality is still largely something people keep in the closet, or which if not in the closet forces people to break family and social ties too often, it heavily impacts the gay community. Regardless of sexuality, people who have poor (or severed) social ties tend to live more recklessly and thus experience higher rates of negative outcomes, such as suicide and risky behaviors.

The does not indicate that it is an inherent problem with homosexuality; rather, it is an indictment of the way we (thanks to Christian influence on our culture) treated and too often continue to treat people who are homosexual in this nation.

And besides, if you're going to use "HIV means gay is bad" as an argument, then you should be promoting lesbianism heavily. Not much risk for HIV there. Just sayin'.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-12-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
A reasonable post, thanks.

I will address your statement of two different creation myths. One of the creation stories is the story of the creation of the Earth the other is what happened in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 1 and 2.

Do a little research on where comets come from and why we still have them. Lot of faith applied there.
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17-12-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:27 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 04:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  PS please justify your statement that HIV / AIDS was not a plague sent by God? How do you know that? Or is it just something that God told you?
The NT clearly teaches that God is not wrathful.

Romans 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5 - But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 5:9 - Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Revelation 14:10-11 - He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

The OT does too, but you dont like the OT i have been told. You like to throw parts overboard that you find inconvenient.
Nevertheless:
Ezekiel 25:17 - And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

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17-12-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:48 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Do a little research on where comets come from and why we still have them. Lot of faith applied there.

Most probably they originate in the Oort clud, we are not sure (yet). Your point is?

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17-12-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:42 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  How can you be an atheist? You cannot know that there is no God without knowing everything that exist everywhere and throughout time and if you knew that then you would be God.
What you describe is called strong atheism, and it is a philosophical position that I do not hold. I subscribe to agnostic atheism, the notion that I *believe* but do not *know* that there is no God, and am prepared to change my mind if evidence is presented.

Quote:You forgot to ask if God can make a rock so big that He can't lift it.

Why can't God remove all evil from the Earth? btw He's going to. This question is really just asking why aren't we in Heaven right now.

This is what I mean by unreasonable.
Both of these are questions that you should consider, if you believe in the omnipotence of God. The first one I am not so bothered by, since logic is a fiddly business and it seems to be more of a logic problem than a physical one - by that I mean that our logic and mathematics we are not sure of the extent to which they apply to the real world because we always have to be suspicious of our assumptions, but there is a physical reality to which our logic seems to apply, at least as an approximation.

The second one is called the problem of evil, and is non-trivial if you wish to preserve your belief in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God. Just because you have heard of it doesn't mean you can dismiss it. But since you can't even offer me a reason to prefer your faith over a different religion, I am content to conclude that you actually have nothing for me.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:57 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 04:48 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Do a little research on where comets come from and why we still have them. Lot of faith applied there.

Most probably they originate in the Oort clud, we are not sure (yet). Your point is?

There is not oort cloud. Purely hypothetical.
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17-12-2016, 05:04 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2016 05:12 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Christian Doctrine
You know, joke verses not actually in Ezekiel aside, my 2nd favorite Bible verse is in Ezekiel 22. I've always admired it:

And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 24 “Son of man, say to her, ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey. They have devoured lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in the midst of her. 26 Her priests have done violence to My law and have profaned My holy things; they have made no distinction between the holy and the profane, and they have not taught the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they hide their eyes from My sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes within her are like wolves tearing the prey, by shedding blood and destroying lives in order to get dishonest gain. 28 Her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ when the Lord has not spoken. 29 The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice. 30 I searched for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one. 31 Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their own way I have recompensed upon their heads,” declares the Lord God.

(Bolded part my favorite phrase.)

I love that! To "...build up the wall and stand in the gap". How Shakespearean!

I also rather think of this passage when I think of what we have done, selling our nation to capitalists while our preachers lead the Religious Right in cheering-on the hyper-wealthy elites who profane everything that it might mean to be decent human beings-- hells, we even elect such men!

Our priests promote "princes" of capitalism, people who wrong the poor and needy, oppress the soujourner without justice and invade other countries in our corporate interest to "shed blood and destroy lives in order to get dishonest gain" (not just Iraq, etc... we've been doing it for half a century and more) while our preachers whitewash it and keep the masses distracted and even cheering them on!

I wish more Christians actually did read the Bible honestly, instead of just repeating what their programmed culture taught them to say about it.

And I stand up as best I can for what I believe. What is too often derided as a "social justice warrior", because now we've even learned to slander and smear those who try to have a sense of righteousness other than what's "permitted" by the princes and their pet priests. (Sorry for alliteration.)

[Edited to clean up formatting errors.]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-12-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:33 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 04:29 PM)morondog Wrote:  So this omnipotent God who loves us and sends horrible diseases like the black death and the Spanish flu to us... they're just tokens of affection?

Sin causes the disease etc. When sin entered the world.

Sin is not a concept I believe in. If you want me to accept your religion, prove to me that sin is a thing. Which means proving to me that your God is a thing. And that you speak for him, and that your book contains his word. Tall order huh? But if your God really wants you to be able to do this, then he should give you the ability to change my and everyone else here's mind, not so? It would be a famous miracle.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Hell, I'm not a God and even I can figure out how (if I had magical powers, of course) to create a rock so big I can't lift it.

Just make it bigger than the entire universe, or the size of it. Once the "rock" consists of everything material, there is no "up" and therefore it's impossible to lift the rock or move it anywhere. There's nowhere to move it to. Big Grin

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-12-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 05:01 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 04:57 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Most probably they originate in the Oort clud, we are not sure (yet). Your point is?

There is not oort cloud. Purely hypothetical.

Rolleyes You're an astronomer too now I see.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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