Christian Doctrine
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19-12-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(18-12-2016 02:52 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  I get that someone can say it was little green goblins. That is not what I believe.

What have you got against goblins?

Are you like some kind of goblin bigot?

(18-12-2016 02:55 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  I just heard that some astronomers say there was some evidence for it. I did not really look into it.

I got nothin'... Blink

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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19-12-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 06:44 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The Problem of Evil is different. It's akin to a child yelling "I HATE YOU!!" at a parent because they don't realize why the parent punished them or let them get hurt attempting something. It may seem evil to the child who is in pain, but the child simply doesn't realize the parent had a reason for allowing tragedy to occur.

We can point out the logical holes in God's claimed attributes, and the major moral flaws in God's actions as described in the Bible. And we should. But claiming God should have created the world without cancer is to presume that there's not some necessary reason for cancer to exist, which is known to the creator but not to us.

So what about genocides, mass rapes, work camps? God too had reason to let them occur? Analogy with child is completely off in this case I would say as what lesson could justify such suffering? And keep in mind that it was failed lesson - one genocide didn't do anything to stop other from occurring.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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19-12-2016, 07:52 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 06:44 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  But claiming God should have created the world without cancer is to presume that there's not some necessary reason for cancer to exist, which is known to the creator but not to us.

God moves in mysterious ways.

I'm sorry, this God loves us allegedly. Not only loves us but loves us more than is possible to comprehend. Therefore, if he does not act to reduce suffering, you say that maybe there is a reason? But this God is all-knowing. If *I* can think of a way to carry out my plans without horrific suffering, why can't this supposedly omniscient being do the same? I think, if one *insists* on the omnipotent and omniscient aspects of God then the only way to resolve this is if God doesn't love some or all of us.

Calling it childish is missing the point. Are you telling me that some kid getting disembowelled (famous case in SA about a year ago) is all part of God's plan and to do it some other way would upset everything? I think it's childish to accept "maybe there's a reason" as sufficient to dismiss this.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 08:04 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 06:44 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Guess that being honest is not what he believes. Laugh out load

As to the "God cannot have the attributes claimed of him", I agree. Based on the description in the Bible, the primitive tribal war deity of the Israelites who demands blood sacrifice and genocide, who cares about who's having sex with whom (and how they do it), et cetera, I think we can say unequivocally that it's a projection of human pettiness and frailty-- a myth, and not a particularly well constructed one.

The Problem of Evil is different. It's akin to a child yelling "I HATE YOU!!" at a parent because they don't realize why the parent punished them or let them get hurt attempting something. It may seem evil to the child who is in pain, but the child simply doesn't realize the parent had a reason for allowing tragedy to occur.

We can point out the logical holes in God's claimed attributes, and the major moral flaws in God's actions as described in the Bible. And we should. But claiming God should have created the world without cancer is to presume that there's not some necessary reason for cancer to exist, which is known to the creator but not to us.

An appeal to ignorance is not compelling and a dodge.

Of course we are CONSTANTLY hearing claims about how this god cures cancer, finds car keys, or making statues cry, etc. So pointing out that a god that supposedly does these things, and then shrugs his shoulders when millions die of diseases is a valid point to make.

The problem of evil is why I started questioning god in the first place.

I was told in no uncertain terms that god would heal you if you prayed to him, including all of these miracles of Jesus, this was what caused the first questions about this version of reality I had been told.

It is not a trivial thing, it undercuts the most basic foundations of what this god is and why he does what he does.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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19-12-2016, 08:14 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 07:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 06:44 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The Problem of Evil is different. It's akin to a child yelling "I HATE YOU!!" at a parent because they don't realize why the parent punished them or let them get hurt attempting something. It may seem evil to the child who is in pain, but the child simply doesn't realize the parent had a reason for allowing tragedy to occur.

We can point out the logical holes in God's claimed attributes, and the major moral flaws in God's actions as described in the Bible. And we should. But claiming God should have created the world without cancer is to presume that there's not some necessary reason for cancer to exist, which is known to the creator but not to us.

So what about genocides, mass rapes, work camps? God too had reason to let them occur? Analogy with child is completely off in this case I would say as what lesson could justify such suffering? And keep in mind that it was failed lesson - one genocide didn't do anything to stop other from occurring.

You are presuming God is trying to "teach a lesson". Genocide, rape, work camps are all human actions. There may be other reasons that God would be non-interventionist against such actions. My only point is that we cannot know that these things are something God should or even can intervene against without screwing up some larger and more important element of the universe.

Keep in mind I think God is not a real thing, but only a projection of the human mind. I'm simply pointing out that too many presumptions about God-- the thing we accuse theists of doing-- must be made in order to posit the above.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 07:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  Calling it childish is missing the point. Are you telling me that some kid getting disembowelled (famous case in SA about a year ago) is all part of God's plan and to do it some other way would upset everything? I think it's childish to accept "maybe there's a reason" as sufficient to dismiss this.

I did not call it or anyone "childish". I used an analogy of a child not understanding the parent's reasons for doing things. Please don't put words in my mouth.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:15 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 07:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  Calling it childish is missing the point. Are you telling me that some kid getting disembowelled (famous case in SA about a year ago) is all part of God's plan and to do it some other way would upset everything? I think it's childish to accept "maybe there's a reason" as sufficient to dismiss this.

I did not call it or anyone "childish". I used an analogy of a child not understanding the parent's reasons for doing things. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Rolleyes OK I retract "calling it childish" and replace it with "The nalogy of a child not understanding the parent's reasons for doing things" is dodgy as fuck as far as I'm concerned.

Happy? Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:04 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  An appeal to ignorance is not compelling and a dodge.

I wholeheartedly agree. However, the point remains that we cannot know whether there is some higher principle at stake, and that point must be made in order to posit that God is compelled to intervene. That is why I don't like the "Problem of Evil".

(19-12-2016 08:04 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Of course we are CONSTANTLY hearing claims about how this god cures cancer, finds car keys, or making statues cry, etc. So pointing out that a god that supposedly does these things, and then shrugs his shoulders when millions die of diseases is a valid point to make.

The problem of evil is why I started questioning god in the first place.

I was told in no uncertain terms that god would heal you if you prayed to him, including all of these miracles of Jesus, this was what caused the first questions about this version of reality I had been told.

It is not a trivial thing, it undercuts the most basic foundations of what this god is and why he does what he does.

This is a different point. As I said before, the Problem of Evil does not apply to any and all gods, but it certainly applies to the Christian God, based on the interventionist characteristics by which they describe him throughout the Bible (and in popular Christian culture, such as the keys thing).

They are two separate questions. The Problem of Evil is generic; the problem of explaining why a God who cares about where I put my penis but does not care when a child is disemboweled is specific, and should be addressed. A God that intervenes when children call his prophet bald (by sending bears to maul them!) is pretty clearly the invention of mankind. We can and should highlight this obvious problem.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
34 pages and not a single question answered directly. Well deja vu me right up the ass!

What the hell, I'll waste some time:

Why should I believe your claims of God, prophets and miracles over that of an Islamic?

You believe the Bible. He believes the Quran. So that's a wash. He feels it. You feel it. Another wash.

Show me, not talk at me, why he's wrong. Then when you've done that, show me why you're "truth" is truer.

I disbelieve all god claims for the same reason...no proof. So give me just a sliver. Something we haven't heard here a million times over.
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19-12-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Hey Christian I've had a bright idea Smile

If it's possible to choose to believe in the face of evidence then it's possible for me too, right?

And you want to save my immortal soul which you know to be in peril.

Therefore for a small monthly fee, I will believe in God Smile This is perfect. You can save a soul for very cheap price! I know I could believe in God for free, but I don't really want to, so the money will compensate me.

$500 US a month should do it Smile

ETA: Specific God will cost extra!

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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