Christian Doctrine
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19-12-2016, 08:27 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:14 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You are presuming God is trying to "teach a lesson".

It was only reaction to your child-parent analogy.

(19-12-2016 08:14 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Genocide, rape, work camps are all human actions. There may be other reasons that God would be non-interventionist against such actions.

They are human actions sure, but human actions which loving and caring god (which is god all theists I talked IRL to believe) would stop. As for those other reasons I honestly can't imagine such - for me it's only god works in mysterious ways claptrap.

(19-12-2016 08:14 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My only point is that we cannot know that these things are something God should or even can intervene against without screwing up some larger and more important element of the universe.

It sound like very bad apologetic.

Loving and caring god hardly could be non-interventionist in regard to such monstrous deeds.

Quote:Keep in mind I think God is not a real thing, but only a projection of the human mind. I'm simply pointing out that too many presumptions about God-- the thing we accuse theists of doing-- must be made in order to posit the above.

Never I met theist who wouldn't assume that god wasn't good, loving and caring. Problem of evil is problem exactly because of that - you can't have god who care about people and let them die for "sin" of being of other skin color.

For clarity sake I too don't think that something called god exists. But in face of how world look like belief in benevolent god is just madness.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-12-2016, 08:32 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  They are two separate questions. The Problem of Evil is generic; the problem of explaining why a God who cares about where I put my penis but does not care when a child is disemboweled is specific, and should be addressed. A God that intervenes when children call his prophet bald (by sending bears to maul them!) is pretty clearly the invention of mankind. We can and should highlight this obvious problem.

As far as I'm concerned you're drawing a distinction that isn't there. If God allows evil acts, why? That is the problem of evil. Specific examples of evil acts are required when people say "but maybe he's got a reason" Wink Especially examples of senseless evil or senseless suffering.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 08:43 AM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2016 08:48 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 08:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  They are two separate questions. The Problem of Evil is generic; the problem of explaining why a God who cares about where I put my penis but does not care when a child is disemboweled is specific, and should be addressed. A God that intervenes when children call his prophet bald (by sending bears to maul them!) is pretty clearly the invention of mankind. We can and should highlight this obvious problem.

As far as I'm concerned you're drawing a distinction that isn't there. If God allows evil acts, why? That is the problem of evil. Specific examples of evil acts are required when people say "but maybe he's got a reason" Wink Especially examples of senseless evil or senseless suffering.

The reason isn't necessarily a "lesson to teach humanity". That's anthropocentric. From our perspective, these things are tragic, horrendous, and inexcusable. But say, for instance, that intervening in the ongoing universe after the point of creation would undo all of existence, or would harm humanity in some way beyond our ability to imagine. Sure, it's speculative at best, but it's something that must be ruled out if we are to posit that God should/must intervene in our world (out of the billions of inhabited planets I suspect are likely in our universe). We cannot.

But as you say, the Problem of Evil does have specific application when measured against the claims of specific religions. That's why it's a good argument against the bloody tribal war god of the Israelites who somehow morphed into a tripartite benevolence, claimed by the Christians to be invested in my best interest (despite "having to" send me to hell if I don't accept the "free" gift of salvation), but not a good argument against theism/deism.

The real key, I think, is to prevent Christians from doing what they like to do when discussing astrophysics/creation, which is to skip effortlessly between the deist conception of The Creator™ and their tribal blood-god (with a list of Very Important Rules to Obey™) and its concept of flaming torment for those who don't accept the tribal god's self-blood-sacrifice-to-self. Hold their feet to the fire. So to speak.

Edit to Add: It occurs to me that the crux of the problem is anthropocentrism. When you posit that God is deeply invested in the behavior of mankind ("What? Noooooo, it's not our priest class who wants to control society... it's GOD!") and focuses His Almighty Attention™ upon us, then you can apply the anthropocentric counter-arguments. But as a generic, philosophical question, I don't think it makes any sense to assert that the problems of humanity, however tragic to us, would weigh in against larger issues related to managing the entire Creation-- given that there is a Creator God, and that Creation relies upon the (magical) properties of this Creator God, of course, which one must presume to even have this discussion.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 08:51 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:43 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 08:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned you're drawing a distinction that isn't there. If God allows evil acts, why? That is the problem of evil. Specific examples of evil acts are required when people say "but maybe he's got a reason" Wink Especially examples of senseless evil or senseless suffering.

The reason isn't necessarily a "lesson to teach humanity". That's anthropocentric. From our perspective, these things are tragic, horrendous, and inexcusable. But say, for instance, that intervening in the ongoing universe after the point of creation would undo all of existence, or would harm humanity in some way beyond our ability to imagine. Sure, it's speculative at best, but it's something that must be ruled out if we are to posit that God should/must intervene in our world (out of the billions of inhabited planets I suspect are likely in our universe). We cannot.

But as you say, the Problem of Evil does have specific application when measured against the claims of specific religions. That's why it's a good argument against the bloody tribal war god of the Israelites who somehow morphed into a tripartite benevolence, claimed by the Christians to be invested in my best interest (despite "having to" send me to hell if I don't accept the "free" gift of salvation), but not a good argument against theism/deism.

The real key, I think, is to prevent Christians from doing what they like to do when discussing astrophysics/creation, which is to skip effortlessly between the deist conception of The Creator™ and their tribal blood-god (with a list of Very Important Rules to Obey™) and its concept of flaming torment for those who don't accept the tribal god's self-blood-sacrifice-to-self. Hold their feet to the fire. So to speak.

Ah. Now I catch your drift. The thing is, once you've asserted an omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent God to me by definition that has to be an anthropocentric God. A personal God. Deist God is practically impossible to disprove with any argument, he's almost equivalent to "I don't know". Deist non-interventionist God doesn't care about humans and their puny works in the least. So, OK, you've pointed out an alternative solution to the problem. Not an evil God, but a God who doesn't care.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 09:00 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:51 AM)morondog Wrote:  So, OK, you've pointed out an alternative solution to the problem. Not an evil God, but a God who doesn't care.

Or, alternatively, one who cares but is not able to intervene without making it worse.

Yeah. Kinda screws most human-made religious ideas.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:19 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Then when you've done that, show me why you're "truth" is truer truthier.

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19-12-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 09:00 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 08:51 AM)morondog Wrote:  So, OK, you've pointed out an alternative solution to the problem. Not an evil God, but a God who doesn't care.

Or, alternatively, one who cares but is not able to intervene without making it worse.

Yeah. Kinda screws most human-made religious ideas.

That would imply lack of omnipotence Smile Which is fine but religious types seem to hate the idea.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 10:24 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 08:21 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You dare contradict the bible???

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
All those quote just say you are sent to Hell - it is still your choice.
I know this is an old post by now - I'm catching up from the weekend since I wasn't here at all.

But I just about fell out of may chair when I read this because it's about as dishonest as it gets. You said hell is not being with God. Fatbaldhobbit pointed out the many references in the bible where it says SPECIFICALLY that hell is fire and torture. After his MANY verses showing that, you claim all they say is that you are sent the hell? And it even says "furnace of fire" right in the one quote that you mined.

So you came here to tell us "the truth"... seriously, by lying and dishonesty? Consider

And, while I'm at it, I also saw you claim you didn't know what happened to your "deleted" posts and then later admitted YOU deleted them because the quote tags were messed up. More LYING. And why? Such a small error and that's all it takes for you to lie? Wow, why should we believe anything you have to say.

I wonder how God feels about you tainting your mission to show us the light by breaking a commandment and lying so much? He must really be disappointed! Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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19-12-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 12:49 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 12:39 PM)pablo Wrote:  

Thank you for making my point. I did not know what happened "WITH" my post. Not where they went.
Thanks again for highlighting that.

MORE dishonestly and lying! Facepalm
Since YOU deleted them, YOU know exactly what happened with them AND where they went. Even when your caught in a lie, you can't do the right thing and admit it. God must be so proud. Dodgy

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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19-12-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 09:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 09:00 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Or, alternatively, one who cares but is not able to intervene without making it worse.

Yeah. Kinda screws most human-made religious ideas.

That would imply lack of omnipotence Smile Which is fine but religious types seem to hate the idea.

Why can't it be that G-d is omnipotent, and chooses not to intervene?

According to my religion, G-d made a promise to allow us freewill, so we're allowed to screw up our world anyway we like. The whole bible is about how man screws up and G-d lets them screw up and lets them deal with the consequences. The onus is on us, not G-d, to improve our world so we're all happy and content.

This whole thing about waiting around and depending on G-d to fix shit and then blaming G-d when things aren't going well is entirely Christian. We have disease because life is an automatic process. Disease runs rampant because too many of us are spending our time shaking our fists at G-d instead of sitting through biology classes at university.
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