Christian Doctrine
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19-12-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 04:19 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 04:15 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  All right. God gave the Earth to man. Man gave Earth to Satan through sin. Jesus won it back by living a perfect life and dying as the redeemer.
I'm aware of the highly illogical story. I asked how it makes sense.

(16-12-2016 04:15 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  What is free-will without the choice to do right or to do wrong.
Better and far more moral. Plus it removes all the bad things that supposedly results from sin.
Wow, an entire weekend in which I was away, 33 additional pages, and these were still never answered. How about it Bzltyr?

For clarity since it's been awhile, the second one was related to this which is the real question for that one that has not been answered:

(16-12-2016 04:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  How about this? Why is free will better with sin than it would be with just the one single limitation of not being allowed to sin? Everything else that is freely choosable now would still be, just not sinning.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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19-12-2016, 11:12 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:27 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The NT clearly teaches that God is not wrathful. Jesus was the recipient of all God's wrath.

If he's not wrathful then what wrath exactly did Jesus receive?

If Jesus IS god then he was wrathful to himself? I guess that makes sense... if I'd make so many mistakes in what I created I'd be pissed at myself too.

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19-12-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Incidentally I think the reason omnibenevolence is frequently added as a requirement is that God who is not omnibenevolent is somewhat of a Death God cult type guy y'know. I mean, having all that power and *not* using it for good? Why would anyone worship that?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 11:04 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 10:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  MD, just want to add, omni-benevolence isn't a characteristic of the Abrahamic God. Any educated theist would never claim that. It's only the indoctrinated, uneducated that would claim this. All the Abrahamic texts and the NT clearly show God isn't benevolent to all.

The O3 is: omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-presence.

Edit: I don't know Aliza's stance on this or much about her religion... so, I could be completely wrong. Just going by what I know and learned.

If I remember correctly Matt Dillahunty said the Omnis don't appear in scripture at all.

I wrote something about this somewhere. I'm driving. Find it in a bit.

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19-12-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Without omnipotence and the rest, God is simply an advanced alien. I still fail to understand his obsession with worship. Like, who cares if some bunch of apes think you're the shit? It seems desperately insecure for such a big ol' deity.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 11:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  Without omnipotence and the rest, God is simply an advanced alien. I still fail to understand his obsession with worship. Like, who cares if some bunch of apes think you're the shit? It seems desperately insecure for such a big ol' deity.
Agreed. Plus the scale - it's something like an elephant caring what a bacterium thinks of it, but on an even far more disparate scale.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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19-12-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 11:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  Without omnipotence and the rest, God is simply an advanced alien. I still fail to understand his obsession with worship. Like, who cares if some bunch of apes think you're the shit? It seems desperately insecure for such a big ol' deity.

Well, dunno, what if they start questioning....and turn against you some time?
Ask this guy if you may. Questions and doubt can be very dangerous.

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19-12-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 09:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 09:16 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Why can't it be that G-d is omnipotent, and chooses not to intervene?

According to my religion, G-d made a promise to allow us freewill, so we're allowed to screw up our world anyway we like. The whole bible is about how man screws up and G-d lets them screw up and lets them deal with the consequences. The onus is on us, not G-d, to improve our world so we're all happy and content.

This whole thing about waiting around and depending on G-d to fix shit and then blaming G-d when things aren't going well is entirely Christian. We have disease because life is an automatic process. Disease runs rampant because too many of us are spending our time shaking our fists at G-d instead of sitting through biology classes at university.

But God does intervene. He had no problem overriding Pharaoh's free will in Exodus. He has no problem killing people for touching the ark of the covenant. Or for daring to hold a census. I take it that the nation of Israel's census bureau do not suffer from 100% mortality every time they collect statistics nowadays?

I guess I could have been clearer here. When I said “chooses” not to intervene, I didn’t mean can’t intervene. My understanding of intervention is that it comes in the form of obstacles that people may choose to be swayed by. The Talmud clarifies that G-d didn’t make the choice for Pharaoh. Pharaoh had free will to choose his own path.

G-d is constantly telling the Jewish people, if you do “A” you will get this outcome, but if you do “B,” you’ll get this other outcome. G-d doesn’t stop people from choosing B, and when they choose that, they get the outcome that goes with that choice.

(19-12-2016 09:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  Anyway, let's accept that we have an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God. Can he really claim omnibenevolence if he does not intervene?

I don’t know what this omni-benevolence thing is you’re talking about. Can you cite from a reliable Jewish source that Jews believe that G-d is omni-benevolent? Maybe if I can read it in context, I can address it.

(19-12-2016 09:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  God loves us. Doesn't want us to suffer. Has the power to act and prevent evil but does not do so. If I were asked right now if I wanted to cure disease and I said yes, that is my freewill. I choose it. Yet despite that the entire human population of the world would choose to cure disease (maybe there are some oddballs who wouldn't), God doesn't act on that, even though it would be our free choice? So in that particular instance our free will and God's desires should align and still he doesn't act?

G-d may not want you to suffer, but it’s up to us to end suffering. I’m not sure where this theology comes from that says that G-d is going to prevent suffering just because we don’t like it, or that G-d will give us everything we hope for without working for it. I really don’t know where you’re getting this from, but it’s not how I’ve been taught.

If your free choice is to end disease, then go bring that free choice to fruition.

(19-12-2016 09:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  Let's consider a murder scene. A criminal chases you Aliza into a dark alley. He's coming for you with a knife. God watches idly, according to his non-intervention policy. He knows that shortly you will die horribly, in great pain, but he does not act. This is part of his plan. The free will of the murderer must be respected. The reason that he does not act is because of the murderer's free will. Yet your free will to not die, he doesn't assist you with that. He could but he won't. In effect he's chosen that the murderer's free will is more important than yours.

A murder scene is a good example.

G-d’s intervention policy may include something that can influence the criminal, but if the criminal chooses not to be swayed, then I’m getting murdered. Sad!

But the series of events that led up to that criminal’s douchbaggery against me was the sum of choices that the criminal made, I made, and the community made both in that moment, and throughout all humanity leading up to that moment. It sucks, and I don’t want to die, but it’s our responsibility as a species to create an environment that doesn’t cause people to resort to murder.

Yes, my free will decision is not to die, but I have to successfully put a plan into action to prevent my death. Free will is not a promise to grant your every wish. It’s more like a promise that the thoughts in your head are actually yours. You’re given freedom of action and decision, but you can only work in the world that is actually presented, and not the world that you wish was presented. We’re basically playing in a sandbox game where each player has equal influence over the shared world.

I don’t know what “plan” you’re referring to. What do you think the plan is? Again, I’d ask you to cite a Jewish source so I can hopefully address this in context -or learn something new.
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19-12-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 04:15 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 04:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Another avoidance; figures. Rolleyes Talk about weak. Drinking Beverage

How about this? Why is free will better with sin than it would be with just the one single limitation of not being allowed to sin? Everything else that is freely choosable now would still be, just not sinning.

And don't think you're off the hook for not answering how Jesus' death accomplished anything regarding forgiving our sins either.

All right. God gave the Earth to man. Man gave Earth to Satan through sin. Jesus won it back by living a perfect life and dying as the redeemer.

What is free-will without the choice to do right or to do wrong.

Actually, no. Jesus never said he was perfect. In fact he said the opposite in Mark 10:18:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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19-12-2016, 12:25 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 09:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  A bit more expansion on the criminal vs victim in the alleyway. God is watching and not intervening. He has the power to act but does not. Basically he chooses the outcome of the event even if he doesn't act. Because he could act but doesn't, by not acting he chooses that the criminal shall kill the victim. He could have chosen an alternative. He could temporarily paralyze the criminal, he could kill the criminal by dropping a meteorite on him or striking him with lightning. He chose the outcome in which the victim died.

Yes, we do believe G-d can act, and sometimes does act through natural events. If G-d really wanted to stop my murder, then G-d can do that. It’s just that Jews don’t believe that he chooses to do that very often.

(19-12-2016 09:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: Note that though the victim and murderer act through free will, it is still God who chooses the outcome, because he could act but doesn't. In other words the free will of either of the people involved in the incident is not actually important. God's plan is the one that is carried out. Therefore God is responsible for the murder.

Also if God is omniscient he knew the murder would take place ahead of time. He chose to let the victim die rather than do anything about it. He could have made the murderer's gun jam, any number of things. But the murderer's free will and careful oiling of his gun mechanism must be respected.

Based on my religious education, the point is for us to rely on ourselves and not wait around for G-d to do everything for us. Judaism is an action based religion, not a faith based religion. We don’t “put our faith in G-d.” We must take control, take action and actually be successful to advance humanity.
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