Christian Doctrine
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-12-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 11:05 AM)morondog Wrote:  Heh Smile Well there you go.

So long as you can handle an evil God, there is no issue.

The Jewish G-d is both good and evil.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
19-12-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Aliza, God has power but chooses to allow evil. How is that anything other than God himself being evil? And if he is evil, why worship him?

I realise that I've presented the argument as if I was arguing against a Christian, but the above sentence is kind of the crux of it.

You said that the reason God does not act is because he respects our free will. I don't really buy this. If God respects free will then why does he insist on rules like not picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

On the other hand apparently God himself for example killed 3000 odd people by burying them when they decided to freely choose to worship the golden calf?

So God can clearly violate his undertaking not to monkey with free will if he chooses?

If *I* have power to act to prevent an event such as a massacre, and yet I choose not to, am I good or evil? And why is that standard not applicable to God? Would we really suffer so much if he prevented us from killing each other?

As I said the omnibenevolence stuff is probably largely Christian bullshit but I would still like to know, if God *isn't* good, why bother with him?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like morondog's post
19-12-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 09:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  A bit more expansion on the criminal vs victim in the alleyway. God is watching and not intervening. He has the power to act but does not. Basically he chooses the outcome of the event even if he doesn't act. Because he could act but doesn't, by not acting he chooses that the criminal shall kill the victim. He could have chosen an alternative. He could temporarily paralyze the criminal, he could kill the criminal by dropping a meteorite on him or striking him with lightning. He chose the outcome in which the victim died.

Yes, we do believe G-d can act, and sometimes does act through natural events. If G-d really wanted to stop my murder, then G-d can do that. It’s just that Jews don’t believe that he chooses to do that very often.

(19-12-2016 09:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: Note that though the victim and murderer act through free will, it is still God who chooses the outcome, because he could act but doesn't. In other words the free will of either of the people involved in the incident is not actually important. God's plan is the one that is carried out. Therefore God is responsible for the murder.

Also if God is omniscient he knew the murder would take place ahead of time. He chose to let the victim die rather than do anything about it. He could have made the murderer's gun jam, any number of things. But the murderer's free will and careful oiling of his gun mechanism must be respected.

Based on my religious education, the point is for us to rely on ourselves and not wait around for G-d to do everything for us. Judaism is an action based religion, not a faith based religion. We don’t “put our faith in G-d.” We must take control, take action and actually be successful to advance humanity.

Can I ask why you need God then? I'm not trying to sound jerk-ish...I just mean if you don't put your faith in God and you are responsible for your choices--why is God necessary?

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
19-12-2016, 12:32 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Based on my religious education, the point is for us to rely on ourselves and not wait around for G-d to do everything for us. Judaism is an action based religion, not a faith based religion. We don’t “put our faith in G-d.” We must take control, take action and actually be successful to advance humanity.

I think that's a rather fine thing Smile I'm arguing with you, but... based on what you say about your religion I rather like it. I still don't think it's particularly healthy to believe in woo, but... it's a lot more positive than most religions, that's for sure.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
19-12-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:27 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 11:05 AM)morondog Wrote:  Heh Smile Well there you go.

So long as you can handle an evil God, there is no issue.

The Jewish G-d is both good and evil.

And that is certainly a rather eye-opening statement Smile It would definitely resolve a lot of the theological issues that those who argue for a solely good God have to wrestle with.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
19-12-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:27 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Jewish G-d is both good and evil.

And that is certainly a rather eye-opening statement Smile It would definitely resolve a lot of the theological issues that those who argue for a solely good God have to wrestle with.

Christianity believes their god is good, and that Satan is a free agent, not under their god's control, who is totally evil. I'm assuming (and curious for you to confirm) this is where your either/or view of good and evil stems from.

Jews believe that all powers, good and evil are controlled by G-d.
Isaiah 45:7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-12-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  And that is certainly a rather eye-opening statement Smile It would definitely resolve a lot of the theological issues that those who argue for a solely good God have to wrestle with.

Christianity believes their god is good, and that Satan is a free agent, not under their god's control, who is totally evil. I'm assuming (and curious for you to confirm) this is where your either/or view of good and evil stems from.

Jews believe that all powers, good and evil are controlled by G-d.
Isaiah 45:7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

As far as I can tell, and I was never a good student of the convoluted crap, in theory, Christians believe that Satan is controlled by God. But the thing is they do insist that God is strictly Good. Satan is evil and is autonomous for a time, until the end of the world. The claim is that the reason Satan is powerless before God is that Jesus kinda went down to hell and beat the shit out of him. People basically choose to follow God or Satan and if they've not atoned/repented of their sins before they die then Satan gets them. At the end of the World God will again beat the living shit out of Satan and will take his "elect" to be with him in heaven, while sending the rest to burn for eternity. Christians must believe and pray to God in order to fight Satan, who runs away in fear every time that a Christian prays.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
19-12-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:30 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, we do believe G-d can act, and sometimes does act through natural events. If G-d really wanted to stop my murder, then G-d can do that. It’s just that Jews don’t believe that he chooses to do that very often.


Based on my religious education, the point is for us to rely on ourselves and not wait around for G-d to do everything for us. Judaism is an action based religion, not a faith based religion. We don’t “put our faith in G-d.” We must take control, take action and actually be successful to advance humanity.

Can I ask why you need God then? I'm not trying to sound jerk-ish...I just mean if you don't put your faith in God and you are responsible for your choices--why is God necessary?

I don't think I need G-d. I think understanding G-d helps me to better relate to the message of Torah, and understanding what my religion says about life helps me to live a better one. I choose to respect G-d because I believe that G-d wrote the book that improves my life. I also just find Judaism to be very intriguing, so I feel compelled to study more and gain more knowledge about what Judaism is.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
19-12-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Christianity believes their god is good, and that Satan is a free agent, not under their god's control, who is totally evil. I'm assuming (and curious for you to confirm) this is where your either/or view of good and evil stems from.

Jews believe that all powers, good and evil are controlled by G-d.
Isaiah 45:7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

As far as I can tell, and I was never a good student of the convoluted crap, in theory, Christians believe that Satan is controlled by God. But the thing is they do insist that God is strictly Good. Satan is evil and is autonomous for a time, until the end of the world. The claim is that the reason Satan is powerless before God is that Jesus kinda went down to hell and beat the shit out of him. People basically choose to follow God or Satan and if they've not atoned/repented of their sins before they die then Satan gets them. At the end of the World God will again beat the living shit out of Satan and will take his "elect" to be with him in heaven, while sending the rest to burn for eternity. Christians must believe and pray to God in order to fight Satan, who runs away in fear every time that a Christian prays.

When you say it like that you make Christianity sound crazy Hobo Oh wait... Laugh out load

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
19-12-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:30 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Can I ask why you need God then? I'm not trying to sound jerk-ish...I just mean if you don't put your faith in God and you are responsible for your choices--why is God necessary?

I don't think I need G-d. I think understanding G-d helps me to better relate to the message of Torah, and understanding what my religion says about life helps me to live a better one. I choose to respect G-d because I believe that G-d wrote the book that improves my life. I also just find Judaism to be very intriguing, so I feel compelled to study more and gain more knowledge about what Judaism is.

I think that's a huge difference between Judaism and Xtianity. Many Xtians believe they need God in their lives or else (face hell, no morals, God's wrath, no answered prayers, no godly help when shit hits the fan).

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like jennybee's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: