Christian Doctrine
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19-12-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Christianity believes their god is good, and that Satan is a free agent, not under their god's control, who is totally evil. I'm assuming (and curious for you to confirm) this is where your either/or view of good and evil stems from.

Jews believe that all powers, good and evil are controlled by G-d.
Isaiah 45:7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

As far as I can tell, and I was never a good student of the convoluted crap, in theory, Christians believe that Satan is controlled by God. But the thing is they do insist that God is strictly Good. Satan is evil and is autonomous for a time, until the end of the world. The claim is that the reason Satan is powerless before God is that Jesus kinda went down to hell and beat the shit out of him. People basically choose to follow God or Satan and if they've not atoned/repented of their sins before they die then Satan gets them. At the end of the World God will again beat the living shit out of Satan and will take his "elect" to be with him in heaven, while sending the rest to burn for eternity. Christians must believe and pray to God in order to fight Satan, who runs away in fear every time that a Christian prays.

... I actually did not know any of those details before. So thanks. -I think I was on track with the root of the either/or good/evil. Is what you described True Christianity™, or just one version (that is most certainly not the real version)?
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19-12-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 01:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  As far as I can tell, and I was never a good student of the convoluted crap, in theory, Christians believe that Satan is controlled by God. But the thing is they do insist that God is strictly Good. Satan is evil and is autonomous for a time, until the end of the world. The claim is that the reason Satan is powerless before God is that Jesus kinda went down to hell and beat the shit out of him. People basically choose to follow God or Satan and if they've not atoned/repented of their sins before they die then Satan gets them. At the end of the World God will again beat the living shit out of Satan and will take his "elect" to be with him in heaven, while sending the rest to burn for eternity. Christians must believe and pray to God in order to fight Satan, who runs away in fear every time that a Christian prays.

... I actually did not know any of those details before. So thanks. -I think I was on track with the root of the either/or good/evil. Is what you described True Christianity™, or just one version (that is most certainly not the real version)?

I'd be interested in that as well. Popcorn Personally, I've always held to the thought that while Satan can tempt, he can't force (e.g. the poetry of the book of Job where he stands in his role as an accuser/advocate). He's not the cause of all evil, he's just as much a prisoner in Hell as anyone else, despite the romanticization done by my own Church during the Middle Ages and by Milton in Paradise Lost with the oft quoted line of how it's better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. Something something Free Will, something something Presdestination something something hundreds of years of European religious wars shaping Catholic and Protestant thought.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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19-12-2016, 01:57 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 01:25 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 01:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ... I actually did not know any of those details before. So thanks. -I think I was on track with the root of the either/or good/evil. Is what you described True Christianity™, or just one version (that is most certainly not the real version)?

I'd be interested in that as well. Popcorn Personally, I've always held to the thought that while Satan can tempt, he can't force (e.g. the poetry of the book of Job where he stands in his role as an accuser/advocate). He's not the cause of all evil, he's just as much a prisoner in Hell as anyone else, despite the romanticization done by my own Church during the Middle Ages and by Milton in Paradise Lost with the oft quoted line of how it's better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. Something something Free Will, something something Presdestination something something hundreds of years of European religious wars shaping Catholic and Protestant thought.

Satan can't do anything without God's permission. And also despite Satan's temptings, we have the ability to rid ourselves of him.

James 4:7
Submit therefore to God Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 6:11-13
Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

1 Peter 5:8-9
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

Psalm 103:19
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.

*Just doing a literary analysis, relax people Wink
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19-12-2016, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2016 02:12 PM by morondog.)
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 01:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ... I actually did not know any of those details before. So thanks. -I think I was on track with the root of the either/or good/evil. Is what you described True Christianity™, or just one version (that is most certainly not the real version)?

Bastardised baptist/protestant Christianity. Oh Gods. Did any of you other poor ex-Christian bastards ever suffer through an alpha course?

ETA: Filtered through the mind of a guy who never really got it

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-12-2016, 02:04 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 02:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 01:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ... I actually did not know any of those details before. So thanks. -I think I was on track with the root of the either/or good/evil. Is what you described True Christianity™, or just one version (that is most certainly not the real version)?

Bastardised baptist/protestant Christianity. Oh Gods. Did any of you other poor ex-Christian bastards ever suffer through an alpha course?

No, but I had CCD. Lots of cherrypicking.
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19-12-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:26 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:20 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Are you a Christian?

Why yes, Aliza, I am.
What makes you think there is your G-d?
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19-12-2016, 02:16 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 02:10 PM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 03:26 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Why yes, Aliza, I am.
What makes you think there is your G-d?

My religion is what makes me think it.
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19-12-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 12:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  And that is certainly a rather eye-opening statement Smile It would definitely resolve a lot of the theological issues that those who argue for a solely good God have to wrestle with.

Christianity believes their god is good, and that Satan is a free agent, not under their god's control, who is totally evil. I'm assuming (and curious for you to confirm) this is where your either/or view of good and evil stems from.

Jews believe that all powers, good and evil are controlled by G-d.
Isaiah 45:7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

Christianity actually has a different god than the OT one, Jesus always refer to his god as Abba/Father, this god is different in terms of characteristics as well as a different actual name.

Though Christians would not like that idea at all, they really can't come to grips with it. On one hand the brutality of the OT god makes them do mental gymnastics to explain it away, but all they have to do is to state that it isn't the same god.

This is what Marcion of Sinopes did, the church declared him a heretic, but this is indeed the view that modern Christians adopt. It's why the Catholic church established canon in the first place, to blunt the effect of the heretic Marcion.

Instead of establishing a consistent god concept that was good, they kept the wrathful god of the OT and simply told the followers to not ask questions, which has pretty much worked, the authority of the church can tell you the answer and then you don't question it. They cynically reconciled the OT god with their shiny, new merciful daddy-god and told the believers to shut up.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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19-12-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 03:12 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Instead of establishing a consistent god concept that was good, they kept the wrathful god of the OT and simply told the followers to not ask questions, which has pretty much worked, the authority of the church can tell you the answer and then you don't question it. They cynically reconciled the OT god with their shiny, new merciful daddy-god and told the believers to shut up.

Great post.

The early xians kind of had to do something to stay on the good side of Constantine and later Constantius.

People often fail to see how the god they worship resembles the emperor. All powerful, often a bloodthirsty tyrant. This was everyday life for the Roman citizen. That their god is the image of the emperor, who was up to that time a god, is easy to understand their acceptance. It had been that way since Augustus was made a god.

That's a long time.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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19-12-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(17-12-2016 04:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 04:30 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism. Christianity's message didn't come from Judaism at all, but rather, it seems to have come from pagan religions in Roman Empire. These pagan ideas were superimposed onto Judaism from religiously uneducated people (probably Jews) and the discrepancies are as obvious to a Jewish audience as the discrepancies of Mormonism are obvious to a (traditionally) Christian audience.

Are all the Messianic Jews crazy? Where is your Messiah Daniel prophesied about? What was Isaiah 53 talking about? Why did so many Jews accept Jesus? Why did the cloth on the scapegoat stop turning white?


The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the [high priest’s] right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white…
(Talmud, Tractate Yoma 39b)

Still addressing your questions… not that you’ve acknowledged my response to Isaiah 53.

First of all, just to be clear, there really aren’t a lot of messianic Jews at all. There are 11 million Jews, and 350,000 of them are messianic. That’s only 3.2% of the Jewish population which is messianic, and that’s giving them the benefit of the doubt that they’re actually Jewish and not Christians who merely self-identify as Jewish.

So are they crazy? No, they’re just incorrect about what the Torah says. Messianic Judaism only manages to attract the Jews with the least Jewish education and the weakest ties to the Jewish community. It’s easy for the Christians to sell their altered Hebrew bible to a group of Jews don't know any better. It’s really no different than converting a disenfranchised gentile.

(17-12-2016 04:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Why did so many Jews accept Jesus?

Maybe you’re referring to the Jews that founded Christianity? Some early Jews (a clear minority), believed that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. Until Jews for Jesus came along in the 1970’s, no Jewish movements ever believed that the messiah was anything like what the Christians say our messiah is.

The Jewish Messiah will have the following traits:
1. He will be a normal human being, not a deity.
2. He will build the third temple.
3. He will be from the House of David, which Jesus clearly is not. (It's possible early Jews didn't realize that.)
4. He would have instituted the messianic era, which includes open miracles, world peace, and Jewish independence from Rome (and any other foreign power.)

The Christian definition of the messiah doesn’t match the previously established Jewish definition of Messiah. Early Jews supporting Jesus were not supporting the Christian understanding of messiah, which is a human-deity who dies for their sins. They would have simply believed that their messianic candidate would fulfill the messianic prophecies.
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