Christian Doctrine
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19-12-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Aliza. I don't think this poster astute enough to answer decent questions. He appears ignorant of scripture, history, hell, everything.

Don't waste your time.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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19-12-2016, 08:17 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 01:14 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 12:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't think I need G-d. I think understanding G-d helps me to better relate to the message of Torah, and understanding what my religion says about life helps me to live a better one. I choose to respect G-d because I believe that G-d wrote the book that improves my life. I also just find Judaism to be very intriguing, so I feel compelled to study more and gain more knowledge about what Judaism is.

I think that's a huge difference between Judaism and Xtianity. Many Xtians believe they need God in their lives or else (face hell, no morals, God's wrath, no answered prayers, no godly help when shit hits the fan).

I concur with this. Every religious Jew I have ever known in the real world was primarily concerned with making their own life better, for the sake of doing it, and trying to "repair the world" (or some phrase like that), meaning that they are essentially non-secular Humanists. Woo elements aside, I see all but the hardcore right-wing types as our "natural allies", as I put it in another thread.

The ones I've known have also been quite frank about the barbarity of their ancestors-- and of most human societies at that point in time-- when it comes to the writing of the "bad" parts of the Torah. (It is from one of them that I borrow the excellent phrase from one conversation I had, in which he quipped, "Want to know what YOUR ancestors were doing to the tribes around them, 3000 years ago?") (My ancestry is three varieties of Germanian tribesman... so, no. I already know.)

Every single one I've ever known (all Americans, I admit) has said some version of, "It makes my life better, and I don't care if anyone converts." They're also 100% behind real science, archaeology, and so on. So after that, I see no point in even talking about it, except to ask "What do you think?" on the occasional subject, or when someone tells me some "Jews think that _________" crap that doesn't sound like what I've heard from most of them... so I go ask.

As much as I like Aliza, her attitude seems to be the rule, in my experience, rather than the exception... whereas with the majority of Christians (again, at least here in the USA), the nice ones who don't try to force me to conform to their social agendas or argue against science seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Which is a crying shame. Sad

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 08:30 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 08:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 01:14 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I think that's a huge difference between Judaism and Xtianity. Many Xtians believe they need God in their lives or else (face hell, no morals, God's wrath, no answered prayers, no godly help when shit hits the fan).

I concur with this. Every religious Jew I have ever known in the real world was primarily concerned with making their own life better, for the sake of doing it, and trying to "repair the world" (or some phrase like that), meaning that they are essentially non-secular Humanists. Woo elements aside, I see all but the hardcore right-wing types as our "natural allies", as I put it in another thread.

The ones I've known have also been quite frank about the barbarity of their ancestors-- and of most human societies at that point in time-- when it comes to the writing of the "bad" parts of the Torah. (It is from one of them that I borrow the excellent phrase from one conversation I had, in which he quipped, "Want to know what YOUR ancestors were doing to the tribes around them, 3000 years ago?") (My ancestry is three varieties of Germanian tribesman... so, no. I already know.)

Every single one I've ever known (all Americans, I admit) has said some version of, "It makes my life better, and I don't care if anyone converts." They're also 100% behind real science, archaeology, and so on. So after that, I see no point in even talking about it, except to ask "What do you think?" on the occasional subject, or when someone tells me some "Jews think that _________" crap that doesn't sound like what I've heard from most of them... so I go ask.

As much as I like Aliza, her attitude seems to be the rule, in my experience, rather than the exception... whereas with the majority of Christians (again, at least here in the USA), the nice ones who don't try to force me to conform to their social agendas or argue against science seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Which is a crying shame. Sad

I'm glad Aliza and others believe because they want to and not out of fear. I think if you are not hurting anyone or standing in the way of science-- and religion enhances your life, then I say go for it. It's the situations where people feel compelled to believe out of fear that always breaks my heart. Many people who come to this forum (mainly ex-Christians) are so afraid of leaving their faith because of what God will do to them in hell for not believing. It is such an awful way to live. I felt the same way before I left Xtianity so my heart goes out to them.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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20-12-2016, 12:11 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(18-12-2016 04:28 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 04:12 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Properly would take a bit of time. I will work on it honestly and get back to you. I am hopeful you will review it honestly as you have stated.
My Paranoid Much? I don't have any reason to lie. But you're gonna have a very long road ahead of you and I want you to be aware that I will probably reject your conclusion - depends what you show me but I'm not hopeful that you can satisfy me. And in the event of that happening, you're not allowed to claim that I didn't review it honestly.

All right, Morondog. I have a minute. As I told you I have discussed my beliefs with other atheists in the past so I looked at old post to find some things that I haven't reviewed is a while.

A big part of why I believe is the Bible. I am doing this piece by piece.

The creation account is different in that God created from outside the universe - in other accounts space time energy matter already existed. The Bible's creation account lines up with science. BBT singularity.
The Bible speaks about the universe expanding.
The Bible speaks about decay.
The Genesis account states that the Earth's atmosphere was so dense that light could not get through - Venus is like this - and that later is dissipated and then later became transparent. This agrees with science.
Plant life was before animals in the Bible as science has determined.
The time between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 could be 9 billions years. Gen 1 speaks about the universe and Gen 2 speaks about the Earth.

I read, watched and discussed these things and satisfied myself that the creation account and science were compatible then stopped contemplating it. I am an accountant, father of 5 kids, build street rods and I am remodeling my home so I do not spend an inordinate amount of time reevaluating my positions once I am satisfied. It is settled in my mind. If you have specific questions I will attempt to answer.
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20-12-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:11 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 04:28 PM)morondog Wrote:  My Paranoid Much? I don't have any reason to lie. But you're gonna have a very long road ahead of you and I want you to be aware that I will probably reject your conclusion - depends what you show me but I'm not hopeful that you can satisfy me. And in the event of that happening, you're not allowed to claim that I didn't review it honestly.

All right, Morondog. I have a minute. As I told you I have discussed my beliefs with other atheists in the past so I looked at old post to find some things that I haven't reviewed is a while.

A big part of why I believe is the Bible. I am doing this piece by piece.

The creation account is different in that God created from outside the universe - in other accounts space time energy matter already existed. The Bible's creation account lines up with science. BBT singularity.
The Bible speaks about the universe expanding.
The Bible speaks about decay.
The Genesis account states that the Earth's atmosphere was so dense that light could not get through - Venus is like this - and that later is dissipated and then later became transparent. This agrees with science.
Plant life was before animals in the Bible as science has determined.
The time between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 could be 9 billions years. Gen 1 speaks about the universe and Gen 2 speaks about the Earth.

I read, watched and discussed these things and satisfied myself that the creation account and science were compatible then stopped contemplating it. I am an accountant, father of 5 kids, build street rods and I am remodeling my home so I do not spend an inordinate amount of time reevaluating my positions once I am satisfied. It is settled in my mind. If you have specific questions I will attempt to answer.

Everyone here is also settled in their thinking. In almost every case, they joined an atheist forum because they have conclusively decided that Christianity is a load of bunk. This isn't a place of questioning Christianity or its merits.

No one here is seriously evaluating your positions. We're just enjoying the game of cornering you.
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20-12-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
The problem with your reasoning is: Only after science discovers how the universe behaves, the bible gets interpreted in a way that -remotely- matches what has been found.

Show us a case in which
1) the bible was interpreted first
2) a very specific and falsifiable prediction was made based on that interpretation
3) and later science discovered this very fact

Quote:The creation account is different in that God created from outside the universe
You still havent explained how "being outside of the universe" is supposed to work. Not.at.all.
What is "space time energy matter already"? Where did the bible speak of, say, energy specifically. There is a definition for energy, you know.

Quote:The Bible speaks about the universe expanding.
Where does it so specifically. Afaik, it speaks about stars being lights being pinned to the ceiling of sky.

Quote:The Bible speaks about decay.
Radioactive decay? Laugh out load
Where....specifically?

Quote:The Genesis account states that the Earth's atmosphere
Where does the bible speak of atmosphere, specifically?

Quote:Plant life was before animals in the Bible as science has determined.
Plant life also was before the sun, correct?

Quote:The time between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 could be 9 billions years
It could also be anything you wish it to be, right?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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20-12-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Yes the problem with your explanations is that you can create any number of them twisting them in order to account for any number of permutations you might encounter in opposition to your irrational beliefs, ergo you cannot lose.
While its no doubt emotionally satisfying to be able to blast through the ether you still fail to provide any decent argument or shred of proof for your claims.
What you wish to believe is up to you, I have no problem with that but when you elect to be able to breeze in and tell people what they need to believe.. or else, especially when the arguments are intellectually dishonest and insult basic human intelligence. Expect to be burned.
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20-12-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(19-12-2016 06:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 04:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Are all the Messianic Jews crazy? Where is your Messiah Daniel prophesied about? What was Isaiah 53 talking about? Why did so many Jews accept Jesus? Why did the cloth on the scapegoat stop turning white?


The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the [high priest’s] right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white…
(Talmud, Tractate Yoma 39b)

Still addressing your questions… not that you’ve acknowledged my response to Isaiah 53.

Sorry, I could not locate that post.
Quote:The Jewish Messiah will have the following traits:
1. He will be a normal human being, not a deity.

Jesus came as a human.
Quote:2. He will build the third temple.

This question is kind of up for discussion as to when this will happen.
Quote:3. He will be from the House of David, which Jesus clearly is not. (It's possible early Jews didn't realize that.)

Pretty sure He was.
Quote:4. He would have instituted the messianic era, which includes open miracles, world peace, and Jewish independence from Rome (and any other foreign power.)

The peace brought by Jesus was between God and man.

Prophecy states that the Messiah's glory will be in the second temple. He second temple is gone. Who was the Messiah. Jesus was in the second temple.

…that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. (Daniel 9:25)

That happened 2000 years ago.
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20-12-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:11 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  All right, Morondog. I have a minute. As I told you I have discussed my beliefs with other atheists in the past so I looked at old post to find some things that I haven't reviewed is a while.
Thanks for coming back. You can see we had some fun in your thread while you were gone, I expect it may take some time to catch up Tongue

Quote:A big part of why I believe is the Bible. I am doing this piece by piece.
Hmm. A Muslim believes in the Quran - ever read it? I gave it a shot but it was a bit boring.

Quote:The creation account is different in that God created from outside the universe - in other accounts space time energy matter already existed. The Bible's creation account lines up with science. BBT singularity.
The Bible speaks about the universe expanding.
The Bible speaks about decay.
The Genesis account states that the Earth's atmosphere was so dense that light could not get through - Venus is like this - and that later is dissipated and then later became transparent. This agrees with science.
Plant life was before animals in the Bible as science has determined.
The time between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 could be 9 billions years. Gen 1 speaks about the universe and Gen 2 speaks about the Earth.
What you are doing is finding analogies between your belief and your understanding of science. While it's possible to do this, it's not really something that convinces me that the creation account of genesis is true. To me it seems as if, for you, the belief is more important, and when the belief is threatened by actual science you find ways to reinterpret it so that you can continue believing it in its modified form.

You have to admit that on the face of it, a verse that alleges 7 day creation, and conversely 9 billion years do not agree. So why is God speaking in code?

I think the most likely explanation is that Genesis is simply a tribal creation myth, much like that found in many other cultures.

Also if the reason that you believe the Bible is because it agrees with science are you saying that science is paramount? If science alleges one thing and the Bible another, will you believe science and disbelieve that bit of the Bible, or you will reinterpret it as "Oh, it must have some mystic meaning which I can't understand"?

Quote:I read, watched and discussed these things and satisfied myself that the creation account and science were compatible then stopped contemplating it. I am an accountant, father of 5 kids, build street rods and I am remodeling my home so I do not spend an inordinate amount of time reevaluating my positions once I am satisfied. It is settled in my mind. If you have specific questions I will attempt to answer.
I am quite happy that it is settled in your mind, but you are attempting to convince me of the truth of it Smile So the specific question that I have really is:
  • if the primary reason for belief is the Bible, why should I believe the Bible?

You are substantially older than I expected though. I thought it was little wet-behind-the-ears kids who got these evangelism gigs?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-12-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(20-12-2016 12:11 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  

Everyone here is also settled in their thinking. In almost every case, they joined an atheist forum because they have conclusively decided that Christianity is a load of bunk. This isn't a place of questioning Christianity or its merits.

No one here is seriously evaluating your positions. We're just enjoying the game of cornering you.

Well, then I should just go.
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