Christian Doctrine
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20-12-2016, 12:36 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Yeah, morondog things do move fast.
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20-12-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:11 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  A big part of why I believe is the Bible. I am doing this piece by piece.

The creation account is different in that God created from outside the universe - in other accounts space time energy matter already existed. The Bible's creation account lines up with science. BBT singularity.

It only lines up in extremely vague ways if you disregard the actual textual details. How many other creation accounts have you studied in detail and tried to correlate to science? If another account has things that line up would you change your beliefs?


(20-12-2016 12:11 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Bible speaks about the universe expanding.

Citation?

Quote:The Bible speaks about decay.

and obviously nobody at the time would have known about decay...

Quote:The Genesis account states that the Earth's atmosphere was so dense that light could not get through - Venus is like this - and that later is dissipated and then later became transparent. This agrees with science.

Citations for both the account saying that and science saying that the earth also had such conditions.

Quote:Plant life was before animals in the Bible as science has determined.

It also has and life before sea life which is wrong

Quote:The time between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 could be 9 billions years. Gen 1 speaks about the universe and Gen 2 speaks about the Earth.

Genesis 1 talks about earth; genesis 2 talks about the same things being created but in a different order.

Quote:I read, watched and discussed these things and satisfied myself that the creation account and science were compatible then stopped contemplating it.

I think I see part of the problem. You convinced yourself that you could overlook the problems and accept what you'd been taught without sufficient consideration.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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20-12-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:35 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(20-12-2016 12:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Everyone here is also settled in their thinking. In almost every case, they joined an atheist forum because they have conclusively decided that Christianity is a load of bunk. This isn't a place of questioning Christianity or its merits.

No one here is seriously evaluating your positions. We're just enjoying the game of cornering you.

Well, then I should just go.

Um. I am answering you honestly. You are trying to convince me, which as far as I'm concerned means you've declared "Duck shooting season is now open! By the way, I am a duck." But I am genuinely interested in what you have to say. I do consider though, that anyone who takes part in evangelism should be well aware that they may receive some counters that may shake them up themselves.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-12-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:35 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(20-12-2016 12:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Everyone here is also settled in their thinking. In almost every case, they joined an atheist forum because they have conclusively decided that Christianity is a load of bunk. This isn't a place of questioning Christianity or its merits.

No one here is seriously evaluating your positions. We're just enjoying the game of cornering you.

Well, then I should just go.

Tbh. Yes,contrary to the spanking you promised us your bottom has been so badly whipped that even I am embarrassed for you.
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20-12-2016, 12:49 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Show us a case in which
1) the bible was interpreted first
2) a very specific and falsifiable prediction was made based on that interpretation
3) and later science discovered this very fact

Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
Created from nothing.
Job 9:8
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Jer 10:12
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Isa 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Universe expanding
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20-12-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:49 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Show us a case in which
1) the bible was interpreted first
2) a very specific and falsifiable prediction was made based on that interpretation
3) and later science discovered this very fact

Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
Created from nothing.
Job 9:8
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Jer 10:12
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Isa 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Universe expanding

... That's kinda vague tbh. It roughly aligns with big bang theory to be fair, but... it's not really that convincing. Plus you had to draw those verses from all over the place. Why doesn't Genesis 1:1 say "God created the universe from a very small thing, which he caused to explode, it exploded and expanded to become the universe that we know today. The early universe was extremely hot and could not support life. After some time it cooled and the first stars formed. They formed because of the influence of gravity, and attractive force which pulls all matter together with all other matter. Stars are those points of light in the night sky. They look small but that's really because they're extremely far away. In reality they are huge furnaces. The Sun is a close by star to Earth, and Earth circles the Sun because of the influence of gravity and also as a result of the formation process of the Solar System."

This is a perfectly fine Genesis myth which is also scientifically accurate. If this was what was written in Genesis I would have no choice but to conclude that those ancient Hebrews really knew their shit. Maybe even were told their shit by a super awesome deity. As it is you've got to reach and stretch and find verses that agree with you and ignore verses that don't - like the "big light and lesser light in the sky" of Genesis which clearly to me show that the Hebrews had zero clue that the Sun was a hefty great big ball of gas.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-12-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
morondog wrote:Also if the reason that you believe the Bible is because it agrees with science are you saying that science is paramount? If science alleges one thing and the Bible another, will you believe science and disbelieve that bit of the Bible, or you will reinterpret it as "Oh, it must have some mystic meaning which I can't understand"?

The Bible tells us to look at nature as well as the Bible to understand God.
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20-12-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Others already addressed most of your post, but I wanted to add this:

(20-12-2016 12:11 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Plant life was before animals in the Bible as science has determined.
Yes... (Genesis 1:11-12, Genesis 1:26-27)
And no... (Genesis 2:4-9)

(Somewhere else you also claimed the bible doesn't contain contradictions.)

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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20-12-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 12:49 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Show us a case in which
1) the bible was interpreted first
2) a very specific and falsifiable prediction was made based on that interpretation
3) and later science discovered this very fact

Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
Created from nothing.
Job 9:8
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Jer 10:12
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Isa 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Universe expanding

I do not read that as them trying to say that the universe is expanding. It is all past tense; the universe was "spreadeth out" and he "stretched out the heavens". It doesn't say is is spreading or stretching. Your interpretation is very over generous to say the least.

Either way, I don't think you met the criteria. Do you have any evidence that this passage was interpreted to mean that the universe was expanding BEFORE science determined that? Going back and forcing an interpretation based on later knowledge is not what you were asked to do.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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20-12-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
morondog wrote: I am quite happy that it is settled in your mind, but you are attempting to convince me of the truth of it So the specific question that I have really is:
if the primary reason for belief is the Bible, why should I believe the Bible?

I am telling you. First: the creation account in the Bible agrees with the natural account. Because the two concur that gives credibility. Just a piece of evidence for trusting the Bible.
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