Christian Doctrine
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21-12-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 10:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 10:34 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Why do you assume I am a young Earth creationist. Never said that.

I was actually replying to MD with that comment. Based on what I've scanned through, it seems your views are more like mine in this respect. I don't see a contradiction between Torah and science. Unlike Christianity, Judaism has very old writings that make this connection much easier, but however you want to paint it, if you're not denying science then I don't care how you arrive at that mindset.

If I misunderstood I apologize. I certainly do not think you are unreasonable. Your post are mostly legitimate.
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21-12-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 10:55 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 10:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Okay now I can say you're just deliberately lying.

All right then. So now finally you say that I am lying. So, previously you were lying about me lying but only now can you truly say I am lying.

Oops, good luck getting that foot out of your mouth.

btw I have looked as the evidence so you are dead wrong again.

No, I consider uncritically repeating the lies of others to be lying, as well. Especially when people are pointing out to you that the information is incorrect, yet you keep saying it.

And I'm sure you did look into it, as you see it. That's not the lie. It's bullshit to claim that they are "chimps, lemurs", et cetera.

There is no possible way that you looked into it with genuine intellectual honesty, and came to that conclusion. No way. Therefore, I can only conclude that what you mean by "I looked into it" is "I read the Discovery Institute propaganda and believed them, instead of reading the primary literature and/or the thousands of legitimate scientific sites that talk about this material".

The Creationist claims that they are "just chimps" (etc) is one of the most thoroughly-debunked (and easily disproved) lies they tell. For you to repeat it makes you complicit.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-12-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 10:58 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 10:36 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Actually, it was the evolutionary biologists who proved they were hoaxes. Almost every one of the hoaxes were doubted by biologists from the get-go because they didn't fit with the rest of the picture that was emerging.

This short video talks about it, and manages to be pretty entertaining. I rather like this guy.





For you to claim it is "riddled" with hoaxes is to misrepresent the facts. Again, I don't think you're deliberately lying, here, but repeating the lies of others without questioning it. So, please, I invite you to look at what the claims are and what the reality is about those hoaxes.

Edit to Add: It's a 2-parter. There's a clickable link to the next episode near the end of the first episode, down in the bottom-right-hand corner.

Rocket, one of the scientists from Oxford, E. T. Hall, who exposed the Piltdown Man hoax also tested the Shroud of Turin found it to be from the 13th century. It's funny to point this out to Christians when they bring up the Piltdown topic.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/22/local/me-36923

The Shroud of Turin was not Jesus'.
Luk 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

The linins were in the tomb.
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21-12-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 11:04 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 10:58 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Rocket, one of the scientists from Oxford, E. T. Hall, who exposed the Piltdown Man hoax also tested the Shroud of Turin found it to be from the 13th century. It's funny to point this out to Christians when they bring up the Piltdown topic.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/22/local/me-36923

The Shroud of Turin was not Jesus'.
Luk 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

The linins were in the tomb.

Who ordered the red herring?

[Image: c21b63312fd682d12287e5e682aab0f0.jpg]

She was pointing out that the guy who (chemically) proved Piltdown Man was a hoax also was involved in showing that the piece of cloth claimed to be the "linins" [sic] in the tomb were not in fact from the time of Jesus.

Whether or not the story says there were linens is irrelevant. It's a red herring.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-12-2016, 11:29 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 11:04 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Shroud of Turin was not Jesus'.
Luk 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

The linins were in the tomb.

So? It doesn't say that the linens that were left behind did not have any image on them or that they were destroyed. Why are you so eager to make assumptions about what it says in Genesis but not here?

If anything, the fact that the linens were left behind is not at all a problem for the claim. If Jesus had supposedly ascended while still wearing the linens it would be a bigger issue.

Of course, the history and the dating attempts all pin it to the 13th century (from memory -- somewhere around there).

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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21-12-2016, 11:30 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
I'm still grinding my teeth over what amounts to utter slander against the entire field of paleoanthropology, in particular the physical anthropologists specializing in bone analysis.

We can literally tell what race and sex a deceased person was, based on simply looking at the bones. We use it all the time in solving crimes. Anyone who has watched even one episode of Bones, CSI, or Law and Order is aware of that.

Do you really think the same scientists can't tell the difference between a human and a chimp skull? Or a hominid and a lemur?

If I seem emotionally involved, it's because you are swallowing propaganda and claiming that you "looked into it and found the evidence uncompelling", then taking that propaganda and slandering people I know who work in the field you are slandering (the majority of whom are Christians, by the way) when you claim they are all lying about the nature of the bones they analyze.

That's why I call you a liar. You are willing to claim you have found the work of thousands of anthropologists from dozens of religious and cultural backgrounds, and from numerous disciplines, to be outright liars and conspirators... using phraseology from Creationist websites to do it.

If you think we cannot see through this, you're deeply mistaken. It is the people who have a specific religious motivation to uphold a literal account of scripture who have the motive and opportunity to lie. As we saw with Piltdown Man and Nebraska Man, when a scientist lies it is his fellow scientists who doubt and then discredit him. This type of critical honesty and competition (not collusion) among scientists forms the basis of the entire Scientific Method.

If you think I'm going to stand by while you accuse my entire professional field (including my wife and my best friend who both still work in evolutionary biology, and many, many of my/our friends and acquaintances) of being liars, then you can expect a pretty fucking salty reaction from me.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-12-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 11:11 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Whether or not the story says there were linens is irrelevant. It's a red herring.

When that's all you have, that's what you go with.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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21-12-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 10:44 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  ...lies by lying liars.
Liars like you?

Remember the wrath of god? That almost looked like someone was lying. What do you think?
(20-12-2016 02:20 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of humanity (Romans 1:18-21).
(17-12-2016 04:27 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The NT clearly teaches that God is not wrathful

Oh, by the way, probably you forgot, most probably you are trying to fill up the forum with more manure to obfuscate your documented ignorance and lies.

Any news abut the Nine Sisters and why the bible got it completely wrong? Any news on why you got it wrong too? The bible claimed its seven, you said only six are visible, the truth is that six to nine (which is the correct number) can be seen.
Oh, if you arent familiar with the concept of "true", it can be googled.

What about the opacity of the atmosphere?
What about the creation account in Gen 1? Were there plants before light?
What about the "lesser light" according to 1:16. How does that light work?
How does the space-time theorem of Borde, Guth, and Vilenkin point towards your specific god?


Quote:The Sun was created in the Gen 1:1 along with the rest of the universe.
Please provide evidence for this assumption, or at least a model according to which you would verify this.

P.S.: the shroud of Turin try of misdirection.....really shows how desperate you are. Please be reminded that your lies and ignorance is well documented and preserved on this forum. Its not like a normal conversation out there on the street where you can dish yout your lies and nonsense.

Since your lies are documented here, i am sure Jesus will be able to read them as well. And we both know what he and his dad think of liars.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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21-12-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Nurse, quick we need more iv neg rep over here stat !
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21-12-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 11:52 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Nurse, quick we need more iv neg rep over here stat !

Tongue I'm not having an unreasonable conversation with him. Besides, he's still well underwater and not likely to come up for air anytime soon.

Edit: Changed from Dodgy to Tongue to better reflect my mood.
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