Christian Doctrine
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22-12-2016, 09:41 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 09:40 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

(22-12-2016 09:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I believe there is a G-d, because such belief makes sense to me. There really isn't much to say. It makes me happy and shouldn't bother anyone else.

.Wait.... Consider ...... by that way of thinking. ......


Consider Should I be worshipping mead/alcohol?

Tongue

I do. Drinking Beverage
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22-12-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
At work.

(22-12-2016 09:41 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 09:40 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  .Wait.... Consider ...... by that way of thinking. ......


Consider Should I be worshipping mead/alcohol?

Tongue

I do. Drinking Beverage

Big Grin Laugh out load
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22-12-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 02:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Bzltyr I want to go back to your Big Bang Theory Biblical Support hypothesis.

You cited some verses as evidence for this. But there are verses of the Bible that very definitely contradict science, such as the woman being made from a man's rib. (And people becoming not-dead again and other such fun things, but let's stick to the rib for now). How do you explain this rib business?

I know you don't believe in evolution, so I guess one way of explaining it is to say that God carefully made all the animals at some point, including Adam, and then made Eve, and carefully grew a new rib for Adam after doing stuff per the Bible story? i.e. to insist that the Bible story is correct, and that this is how it happened.

Do you believe that? You make the Bible fit the Big Bang theory, so with cosmology you don't challenge the theory, but the Bible is clearly in direct conflict with biology, so you throw out Evolution ("it's riddled with hoaxes") on that basis?

Incidentally this is the point at which you lose me - if the reason for believing the Bible is that it agrees with science, and then you throw out the science that it doesn't agree with, I no longer see reason to believe the Bible.

I am super interested to know, after all this, how on Earth you propose to arrive at reasonable belief in for example the resurrection?

This is a little off the subject of the bible but other religions claim the same damned thing. The Hindus claim their religion knew about atomic energy and cells and dna and all kinds of scientific stuff thousands of years before science so, you see, their god must exist and is the true god.

Here is the "proof" from the text of the Mahabharata, or so claim the Hindus.

“It was as if all the nature’s forces have been suddenly unleashed. Something dazzling like the sun revolved in circles. Burned with a heat of this weapon, the world was staggering, as in a fever.
Elephants caught fire from the heat and rushed wildly hither and thither in search of protection from the terrible power. Water in the sea turned hot, the animals were dying, the foes were killed and trees were falling in rows under the fury of the forest fire......."

Not only that but the Rig Veda supposedly describes a vehicle called a Jalayan that flies so the Hindu gods must be true! Beats the hell outta the bible and their silly iron chariots.


[Image: Vimana%2BShastra%2B-%2BIndus%2BSaraswati%2BSeals.jpg]

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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22-12-2016, 10:26 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 02:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Bzltyr I want to go back to your Big Bang Theory Biblical Support hypothesis.

You cited some verses as evidence for this. But there are verses of the Bible that very definitely contradict science, such as the woman being made from a man's rib. (And people becoming not-dead again and other such fun things, but let's stick to the rib for now). How do you explain this rib business?

I know you don't believe in evolution, so I guess one way of explaining it is to say that God carefully made all the animals at some point, including Adam, and then made Eve, and carefully grew a new rib for Adam after doing stuff per the Bible story? i.e. to insist that the Bible story is correct, and that this is how it happened.

Do you believe that? You make the Bible fit the Big Bang theory, so with cosmology you don't challenge the theory, but the Bible is clearly in direct conflict with biology, so you throw out Evolution ("it's riddled with hoaxes") on that basis?

Incidentally this is the point at which you lose me - if the reason for believing the Bible is that it agrees with science, and then you throw out the science that it doesn't agree with, I no longer see reason to believe the Bible.

I am super interested to know, after all this, how on Earth you propose to arrive at reasonable belief in for example the resurrection?

This is a little off the subject of the bible but other religions claim the same damned thing. The Hindus claim their religion knew about atomic energy and cells and dna and all kinds of scientific stuff thousands of years before science so, you see, their god must exist and is the true god.

Here is the "proof" from the text of the Mahabharata, or so claim the Hindus.

“It was as if all the nature’s forces have been suddenly unleashed. Something dazzling like the sun revolved in circles. Burned with a heat of this weapon, the world was staggering, as in a fever.
Elephants caught fire from the heat and rushed wildly hither and thither in search of protection from the terrible power. Water in the sea turned hot, the animals were dying, the foes were killed and trees were falling in rows under the fury of the forest fire......."

Not only that but the Rig Veda supposedly describes a vehicle called a Jalayan that flies so the Hindu gods must be true! Beats the hell outta the bible and their silly iron chariots.


[Image: Vimana%2BShastra%2B-%2BIndus%2BSaraswati%2BSeals.jpg]

Not to mention their religion and scriptures are centuries older than the earliest claimed vestiges of Judaism, let alone Christianity.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-12-2016, 11:18 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 10:26 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is a little off the subject of the bible but other religions claim the same damned thing. The Hindus claim their religion knew about atomic energy and cells and dna and all kinds of scientific stuff thousands of years before science so, you see, their god must exist and is the true god.

Here is the "proof" from the text of the Mahabharata, or so claim the Hindus.

“It was as if all the nature’s forces have been suddenly unleashed. Something dazzling like the sun revolved in circles. Burned with a heat of this weapon, the world was staggering, as in a fever.
Elephants caught fire from the heat and rushed wildly hither and thither in search of protection from the terrible power. Water in the sea turned hot, the animals were dying, the foes were killed and trees were falling in rows under the fury of the forest fire......."

Not only that but the Rig Veda supposedly describes a vehicle called a Jalayan that flies so the Hindu gods must be true! Beats the hell outta the bible and their silly iron chariots.


[Image: Vimana%2BShastra%2B-%2BIndus%2BSaraswati%2BSeals.jpg]

Not to mention their religion and scriptures are centuries older than the earliest claimed vestiges of Judaism, let alone Christianity.

Yup.

One time I got into a "discussion" online with a Hindu so I sat and read a lot of the Vedas and other Hindu writings to refresh my knowledge of their religion. This guy claimed the same thing about Hinduism as Btyzir claims about the Bible. It's all about interpreting the text to mean what you want it to mean. I'm not 100% sure but I think some of the South American religious iconography has been interpreted to be scientific too.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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22-12-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 10:19 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 12:13 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Except according to the NT, he wasn't a normal human. According to the NT, he was part deity, couldn't sin, and was resurrected.
Didn't sin not couldn't sin.

I used to have a list of the sins that the NT describes that Jesus committed, but I can't find it, so I'm just going to work off the top of my head with a few examples. Jesus was said to have destroyed a fig tree, which is a sin, and Jesus didn't have physical children, which is also a sin. Jesus was shitty to his mother, which is a significant sin.

Bear in mind, Jesus was a Jew, so I'm holding him to Jewish standards.

... but to be fair, in Judaism, perfection isn't valued at all. People are people, and we're here to grow and learn. That involves stumbling a few times. That's perfectly okay in Jewish thought.

(21-12-2016 10:19 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 12:13 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The previously established Jewish concept of messiah is that the messiah will be a great leader, live a normal human life, and will be a descendant of King David through his physical seed and body.
Christian views never cease to surprise me, so I won't assume anything. Jews do not believe that the third temple has been built yet.
As I said, "up for discussion as to when this will happen.”

It’s really not up for discussion at all. There is no temple, and there needs to be a temple. That's all there is to it. What Christians say and think doesn't factor into the equation.

(21-12-2016 10:19 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 12:13 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Christians can believe whatever makes them happy, but the concept of Messiah is a Jewish one, and Jesus doesn't fit the bill for being from the House of David. He would have needed a biological Davidic father. These rules are long established, detailed in the Torah, and maintained as a Jewish tradition from the time of Moses.
The rules do not arbitrarily suspend because some Gentiles like some guy.
Passed through the mother.

The mother doesn’t count. The mother has never counted in determining a house affiliation because she lacks a Y-chromosome to pass onto her son, and house affiliations are like Y-chromosomes. They are a biological association from father to physical son.

This is like the Mormons telling Christians that the rules have somehow changed and that the Christians should modify their religion to align with Mormonism. It's absurd and insulting.

(21-12-2016 10:19 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 12:13 AM)Aliza Wrote:  But to qualify as the Jewish messiah, he needed to fulfill the messianic expectations that were established hundreds of years before his birth.
If he doesn't fulfill those qualifications, then he's not the Jewish messiah. It's nothing personal against him. He failed to do the job.
It is a matter of timing.

Your Jesus character is dead. He did not do the job, and his chance is over. We can demonstrate today that there is no temple, and no world peace, so Jesus failed.

And to boot, the Christians outed him as being non-Davidic, so he can’t have been the messiah.
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22-12-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(21-12-2016 10:19 AM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Haggai 2:6-9 " 6 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; 7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts. 8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the Lord of hosts. 9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts."

Let’s take another look what Haggai is saying:

3. Who among you is left, who saw this house in its former glory? And as you see it now, is it not as nothing in your eyes?

Here, G-d is rhetorically asking the Jews of Haggai’s time if any of them were alive to see the former glory of the House of Israel. -Because they're going to be called upon to take up practice of diligently following Torah so they can ward off an upcoming negative influence.

4. And now, be strong, Zerubbabel, says the Lord; and be strong, Joshua the son of Jehozadak the High Priest; and be strong, all the people of the land, says the Lord. And (for I am with you, says the Lord of Hosts) do 5. the thing that I set up with you when you left Egypt. And My spirit stands in your midst; fear not.

The verses above are a little bit of a preamble to what G-d is about to say. G-d is telling the Jews that some turbulence is on the horizon, but that the Jews don’t need to fear it as long as they keep the Torah, as instructed after they left Egypt.

6. For so said the Lord of Hosts: [There will rise] another one, and I will shake up the heaven and the earth and the sea and the dry land [for] a little while.

G-d is going to rise something up again. Whatever it is, it’s going to be a new incarnation of something we’ve already seen before. It’s coming in a little while, and it’s going to shake everything up. Whether you want to read this as the event happening “in” a little while or “for” a little while, it can’t apply to Jesus because the Christians contend that Jesus’s influence is everlasting, and history shows us that Jesus didn’t come around for another +500 years. (That’s not ‘a little while’)

7. And I will shake up all the nations, and they shall come [with] the precious things of all the nations. And I will fill this House with glory, said the Lord of Hosts.

“The Nations” means the gentiles. The Gentiles are going to be shaken up, and they’re going bring their wealth to this new house that G-d is building for them. The term “House” doesn’t refer to a physical building. It means a group of people.

It would seem from this passage that there is going to be a new empire.

8. The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine, says the Lord of Hosts.

G-d is saying that the wealth of the world is really his to do with as he pleases.
The glory of this last House shall be greater than the first one, said the Lord of Hosts. And in this place I will grant peace, says the Lord of Hosts.

This new empire is going to be greater and wealthier than the last one. The new empire is none other than… (drum roll) Greece!
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22-12-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 11:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This new empire is going to be greater and wealthier than the last one. The new empire is none other than… (drum roll) Greece!

Pssh! Everyone knows gay Macedonians don't count. Tongue

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-12-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(20-12-2016 08:06 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(20-12-2016 08:01 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You forget quickly it seems.

That is a threat? You must be a very sensitive little snowflake to feel threatened by me for that. That' just funny.
I am certain you will get a lot of LIKES for the humor of your post.

ETA You should join Rocket in his safe zone with the coloring books and play doh.

Oh come on man, "safe zone"s? Sad

(21-12-2016 09:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 08:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  You mentioned somewhere something about "If God is that good to make the universe then he can do anything". Please understand this is not a valid explanation. Sure, God could have created everything that we see and interact with along with fake memories for everyone and so forth in the last 15 seconds. Yet you are extremely sure that he didn't.

If you want to convince me then saying "Magic" is not convincing.

If G-d created the universe and everything in it 15 seconds ago, then we're not meant to know it because the solution to the puzzle is still a very old universe.

All evidence points to a universe that is billions of years old. That's what we're meant to see.

This is one of the many reasons you are one of my favorite posters (not that it's probably worth much, but still).

(21-12-2016 11:30 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We can literally tell what race and sex a deceased person was, based on simply looking at the bones. We use it all the time in solving crimes. Anyone who has watched even one episode of Bones, CSI, or Law and Order is aware of that.
Despite it being accurate in this case, I just have to say, every time someone uses one of those shows as an example, a Criminologist shoves a shotgun in their mouth. Tongue


(21-12-2016 09:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is like the Mormons telling Christians that the rules have somehow changed and that the Christians should modify their religion to align with Mormonism. It's absurd and insulting.
Isn't that pretty much more or less exactly what the Mormons do? Baptism for the dead, redefinition of the nature of God, the redefinition of who is and isn't an ancient Israelite, redefinition of afterlife models, etc. Not that I'm disagreeing with how the wider context would be insulting to you.

If we're going by Abrahamic based faiths, does this mean that:
The Torah is the original that everyone liked at first.
The Bible was the sequel that got darker.
The Quran ends the trilogy and alongside its spinoff, the Hadith, starts revising the canon.
The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, etc. just say, "Hey guys, we have another Testament of Star Wars everything everyone else said before, but it's MURRICA!!!", please like our lame attempt to cash in on what the Jews started and everyone else built on.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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22-12-2016, 06:02 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 12:46 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(21-12-2016 09:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is like the Mormons telling Christians that the rules have somehow changed and that the Christians should modify their religion to align with Mormonism. It's absurd and insulting.
Isn't that pretty much more or less exactly what the Mormons do? Baptism for the dead, redefinition of the nature of God, the redefinition of who is and isn't an ancient Israelite, redefinition of afterlife models, etc. Not that I'm disagreeing with how the wider context would be insulting to you.

Yeah, my conversation with Bzltyr started off with discussing how Christianity is to Judaism as Mormonism is to Christianity. We kind of view Mormonism as retribution to the Christians. See how it feels? You like that? WELL NEITHER DID WE!

(Only ours came with 2,000 years of torture, expulsions, undue taxes, and pogroms. Thanks, Goyim! You're the best!)

(22-12-2016 12:46 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  If we're going by Abrahamic based faiths, does this mean that:
The Torah is the original that everyone liked at first.
The Bible was the sequel that got darker.
The Quran ends the trilogy and alongside its spinoff, the Hadith, starts revising the canon.
The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, etc. just say, "Hey guys, we have another Testament of Star Wars everything everyone else said before, but it's MURRICA!!!", please like our lame attempt to cash in on what the Jews started and everyone else built on.

The Jewish position is that the Hebrew Bible is our book and it was never intended for public consumption at all. If we could have our way on it, we’d have you guys stop reading our diary and just give it back to us. It’s not for you at all. (It’s like Westworld! The maze wasn’t meant for you, and if you wasted your life following it, it’s your own damn fault.)

With that said, the gentiles have made it pretty clear that they really dig our book and are not interested in giving it back at all. We can’t make you do that, but we kind of get our subtle revenge because we know well that they’re reading it all wrong. In fact, we kind of view the silly translations they come up with as a sort of punishment for taking something that wasn’t theirs. Big Grin (Sorry, Shai! I really do adore you, but that is legitimately Judaism’s stance.)
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