Christian Doctrine
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16-12-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:13 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Doctrine of Original Sin

I know this is a hard one to accept. I usually ask the person have you been perfect? No. Then you have sinned and fallen short so if there were no original sin you blew it anyway.

That's a cop out.

Original Sin states that we are created sick and that if we do not cure ourselves we will be damned for eternity.

(16-12-2016 03:13 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  It seems that God created man for relationship reasons.

A man meets a woman. He falls in love with her. He tells her: "I love you. I want a relationship with you. If you reject me, I'll torture you forever."

Why is it okay when god says that?

(16-12-2016 03:13 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  God, in the trinity has a relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and spread that around to man.

NO. According to christian doctrine they ARE THE SAME BEING. One God. Three Parts. There is no relationship as if between separate beings.


(16-12-2016 03:13 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  It is difficult to have a real relationship with a robot who cannot reject you and has no free-will to love you or hate you.

And it's a bit immature to promise everlasting torture if that creature, that non-robot, rejects you.

I'm a poorly evolved primate. If I can figure that out, why can't god?

(16-12-2016 03:13 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  He made man with the choice to enter into that relationship with him or not. Make sense, you asked - yep, make sense to me.

Coercion, threats, intimidation, violence and degradation are not part of a healthy loving relationship.

It's a description of domestic violence.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-12-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 07:49 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Jesus wasn't suppose to die..

Jesus didn't die. He ascended bodily into heaven. Ready the silly book.

Jesus isn't a sacrifice to god. He's god renting himself to himself for the weekend. Cheap.

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16-12-2016, 08:33 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
I don't know what happened with my last two posts.
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16-12-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Dear humanity, this is God. I love you so very much that I have given you free will. Now do as I command or I'll really give you something to cry about!

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16-12-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Okay Fat and Bald I will try again to post a reply.
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16-12-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
As an all knowing fictional god, your god knows the torment of what every person in hell experiences for all eternity.

Your god is the most tortured being in all of fiction. That's why he's unable to do anything.

After all the shit he did in the bible, he probably deserves it.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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16-12-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 08:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Okay Fat and Bald I will try again to post a reply.

Don't do that.
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16-12-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Vicarious Redemption
Really bad people going to Heaven. Who sets the bar? If you had a graph of all sin that went from one to a million your sin and my sin and Hitler's sin would all be a million and perfection would be zero.

You need to take a refresher course in basic math. Also in theology apparently. There are a variety of levels of sins, including mortal sins, venial sins, etc. Some are worse than others. According to church doctrine some people sin more, some less. There is variation.

So, yes, one person can sin a little and another can sin much more. On a graph of all the sin ever committed, the numbers would be small, but there would be a comparative difference.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  If you understand percentages you will realize that you and I are as bad as Hitler relative to perfection. Simplistic, I know, but I hope you get the idea.

Nauseating actually. So if one sin makes you as bad as Hitler, then what the hell? Let's go nuts. Seriously, that's a bad argument.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  It is nice to know you believe in objective morality.

No I don't. No source of objective morality has ever been evidenced. Your god is claimed to be good, yet commits hideous acts. I'm simply pointing out the contradictions.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  One person CAN NOT ATONE for the sins of another.

Says you. If God exists He gets to make the rules. Jesus atoned for your sins and God is not mad at you in the least.

You have a cookie.
I take your cookie and eat it.
You are upset.
I apologize to god.
God says no problem.
I am happy.
You may or may not be happy. Doesn't matter.
God said it was okay. You whine too much and guess where you end up?

Guess what?
after all that, I still ate the cookie.
God's forgiveness does not change the act. The act still happened.
Even if you forgive me, the act still happened.
I took something from you.
Forgiveness only absolves you from some of the consequences.
It cannot erase the act.
It cannot erase the ripples, the reactions that happen from the initial act.

Your god, if he existed, could not change any of that.

But, getting back to that scapegoating thing...

Let's lay this out.

God sets up the world and creates man.
He knows in advance that man will sin and reject him.
He knows in advance that most men will die and be tortured eternally in hell.
He creates them anyway.

Men sin, reject god and are doomed.
God is surprised.
God decides to create a loophole to the rules he created.
God sends himself (jesus) down to the world.
God allows men to sacrifice god (jesus) to himself (god) to fulfill the loophole that god created in the rules that god himself set up in the first place.

That makes perfect sense.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-12-2016, 08:56 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 08:43 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 08:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Okay Fat and Bald I will try again to post a reply.

Don't do that.

I musta hit a nerve...

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-12-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(16-12-2016 08:31 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 07:49 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Jesus wasn't suppose to die..

Jesus didn't die. He ascended bodily into heaven. Ready the silly book.

Jesus isn't a sacrifice to god. He's god renting himself to himself for the weekend. Cheap.

True. It's not a sacrifice if he knew in advance he was going to heaven.

A true sacrifice is when someone willingly gives up something forever so others can live a better life and they do it without pre-knowledge or the end result of their sacrifice. Soldiers, for instance, sacrifice possible life and limb. When they go into battle they go into an unknown future. They sacrifice without the pre-knowledge of whether or not they will ever see their families again or be tortured for years in an enemy prison. Jesus/god has a couple of bad days hanging around on a couple of sticks with the pre-knowledge of heaven awaiting him. Namby-pamby little wimp.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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