Christian Doctrine
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23-12-2016, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2016 08:27 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Four independent writers who were either eye-witnesses or close acquaintances of eye-witnesses.

Nope. None of the authors were eye-witnesses, nor do any of them claim to be. Best archaeological and textual evidence places them at earliest decades after the supposed events. The oldest complete manuscripts (whole Gospels or Bibles) date to many centuries later than the few credit-card sized scraps that we do have scattered across those first centuries.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  So much of the Gospels has be proven to be true.

The things it gets true are trivially true. Those trivialities do nothing to back up the extraordinary claims made by the Gospels. Plus it gets some very fundamentally basic things wrong, such as the value of Pi or the shape of the Earth; things that were known to educated scholars (Greek & Egyptian) centuries before the Gospels were written. Even without Arabic numerals and the concept of zero, Egyptians calculated Pi out to several decimal places. The ancient Greek mathematical and astronomer Eratosthenes of Cyrene performed experiments and deduced both that the world was spherical, and even calculated the Earth's circumference to an astonishingly accurate degree; more than two centuries before the supposed birth of Jesus.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Things like people, places and events.

Which the Gospels still often get terribly wrong. There is no corroboration for Herrod's infanticide, all other histories of the area and time utterly fail to mention it. The state sanctioned murder of all infants in an entire kingdom like that wouldn't have been missed by contemporary historians. Also the Gospel's depiction of Pontious Pilate is entirely at odds with all other contemporary accounts of the man.

As an aside, both the ancient Chinese and Egyptian dynasties existed and thrived across the time when the worldwide flood of Noah supposedly occurred. Indeed, both empires failed to mention being wiped out in the world wide flood in their written histories, of which we have copious records of. Tenacious people, those ancient Chinese and Egyptians. Just sayin'.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The writers had no compunction to write the Gospels except to get the story out.

Right, and Joseph Smith spread Mormonism just to get the word out, and not to advance his own wealth or access to a cadre of women. Ditto for Muhammad. Guess they're both authentic too, right?


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  They were not made rich or given preferential treatment.

The Gospels were authored anonymously. Their accreditation is a hold over of old church tradition, nothing more. Authorship was assigned, not verified.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  They were killed and some in not very nice ways.

Anonymous authorship cannot be attributed martyrdom. Church legend is not verifiable history, indeed it's unverifiable, that's why it's legend and not history.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Gospels are different in ways that show they did not collude with each other.

This is my favorite dumb idea. The idea that the Gospels are more trustworthy because they do not corroborate each other. This is a standard that no sane person attributes positively in any other situation, except when judging their preferred holy books.

If two witnesses are brought into a court of law and their testimony directly contradicts with each other and is entirely irreconcilable, you do not err on the side that they're both telling the truth. This is the very definition of Special Pleading, demanding that the Gospels be judged by a different (and in this case, opposite and nonsensical) standard than everything else.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Gospels tell the story and do not contradict each other.

Jesus's genealogy.
-MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus.
-LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three.

Where Jesus went and when.
-MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
-JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

Order of the Resurrection, who showed up and when.
-MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
-MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
-LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
-JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

Jesus's last words on the cross.
-MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
-LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."
-JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK allegedly represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")


This is just the tip of the iceberg, and I can more than easily continue. But no, please continue to tell us how they do not contradict each other. I mean, it's not like these contradictions (are you saved by works or faith alone?) have caused major rifts in the faith and the creation of whole new sects. Funny how the supposedly not-at-all-contradictory absolute Truth™ causes the creation of more and more splintering factions that fight over different interpretations, instead of bringing everyone together into a single unified faith.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The disciples prior to Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection and who they were afterwards is so very different. Peter cowered before a slave girl when Jesus was under arrest. Later Peter scolded the Jewish High Priest and those who were in power and could have made life very difficult.

Once again, citing differences and inconsistencies as somehow being evidence of factual validity, instead of just poor writing and story telling.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  There are thousands of manuscripts of the Bible. Many more than any other ancient text.

So? It became the de facto religion of Rome, hence the Holy Roman Empire. Plus the papal authorities were not really keen on saving heretical works of other religions during the Christian Dark Ages. The volume of manuscripts is not evidence for their truthfulness, and to claim otherwise is willful dishonestly or ineptitude of the highest order.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  They were written early enough that the public that saw Jesus die also could read the Gospels and raise hell if they were false records.

Mormonism. If members of the rural United States at the turn of the last century could be duped by an illiterate convicted con-man from up state New York, then you cannot claim that the far less educated and even more credulous nomadic goat herders of ancient Palestine couldn't also be duped just the same.


(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Gospels are history. Proven history.

Not at all. Those who claim as such are either monumentally ignorant of the current state of biblical studies, or they are being purposely dishonest. Ignorant or lying, pick one. Are you a know-nothing running off at the mouth, or are you honestly trying to bullshit people who know far more about this topic than you evidently do?

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23-12-2016, 05:30 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 09:36 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Read Norman Gielsler and then you will have the opinion of an actual scholar.

Quote:The overview of his system was later streamlined slightly into a 12-point schema. As of 1999 it could be summarized as follows:

Truth about reality is knowable.
Opposites cannot both be true.
The theistic God exists.
Miracles are possible.
Miracles performed in connection with a truth claim are acts of God to confirm the truth of God through a messenger of God.
The New Testament documents are reliable.
As witnessed in the New Testament, Jesus claimed to be God.
Jesus’ claim to divinity was proven by a unique convergence of miracles.
Therefore, Jesus was God in human flesh.
Whatever Jesus affirmed as true, is true.
Jesus affirmed that the Bible is the Word of God.
Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God and whatever is opposed to any biblical truth is false.

Do you subscribe to his apologetics?
Do you think miracles are possible? Why?
Do you thnk that whatever is opposed to any biblical truth is false? What is a"biblical truth" in light of the fact that people change its interpretation for 2000y now? How you you determine what is true in general, outside of the scope of the bible? How do you gain knowledge based on this claim of his?
He claims the theistic god exists. Looks like without any furhter argument to back this up. What s your opinion on this?
What makes his interpretation of the theistic god and his interpretation on the bible true, unlike other interpretations (particularly in light of the fact that the interpretaions are changing since 2000y now)?
If Jesus affirmed the bible is the word of god, and what ever Jesus affirmed is true, is true, why did you dismiss the OT earlier (dont make me dig out your quotes, you did!)

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23-12-2016, 05:44 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Four independent writers who were either eye-witnesses or close acquaintances of eye-witnesses.

Who wrote the gospels? Who were the eyewhitnesses they knew? How did you determine they were independent?

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23-12-2016, 06:24 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 03:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Four independent writers who were either eye-witnesses or close acquaintances of eye-witnesses.

Nope. None of the authors were eye-witnesses, nor do any of them claim to be. Best archaeological and textual evidence places them at earliest decades after the supposed events. The oldest complete manuscripts date to many centuries later than the few scraps that we do have scattered across that time.

Bzltyr, I'm quoting this post to make absolutely sure that you read it. It's a long one, so make sure you read the whole thing. I know you came here to tell us The Truth, but if you can't answer the points raised in this post in particular then you've lost all hope of ever gaining a convert (speaking for myself).

You also would do well to consider if that which you call Truth is actually true. I say this because spending your life in thrall to a fairytale doesn't sound pleasant to me, so two things: first unless you can prove it is not a fairytale to me, I will not believe it. Second, I think the points raised here give you ample reason to think it's a fairytale yourself, therefore if I were you I'd sincerely consider whether I might be wrong, since if Christ did not rise from the dead then as St Paul says "you are of all men most miserable".

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-12-2016, 06:26 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 09:36 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Read Norman Gielsler and then you will have the opinion of an actual scholar.

An evangelical apologist scholar.

Ya think there might be a liiiiiiiitle bit of bias there?

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23-12-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 06:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 03:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Nope. None of the authors were eye-witnesses, nor do any of them claim to be. Best archaeological and textual evidence places them at earliest decades after the supposed events. The oldest complete manuscripts date to many centuries later than the few scraps that we do have scattered across that time.

Bzltyr, I'm quoting this post to make absolutely sure that you read it. It's a long one, so make sure you read the whole thing. I know you came here to tell us The Truth, but if you can't answer the points raised in this post in particular then you've lost all hope of ever gaining a convert (speaking for myself).

Fun Question: When Jesus was alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, and talking to god (himself), who was there to witness what he said? If the Gospels are eye-witness accounts, who witnessed Jesus and his private conversation with god (himself)? Laughat

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23-12-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 08:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 06:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  Bzltyr, I'm quoting this post to make absolutely sure that you read it. It's a long one, so make sure you read the whole thing. I know you came here to tell us The Truth, but if you can't answer the points raised in this post in particular then you've lost all hope of ever gaining a convert (speaking for myself).

Fun Question: When Jesus was alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, and talking to god (himself), who was there to witness what he said? If the Gospels are eye-witness accounts, who witnessed Jesus and his private conversation with god (himself)? Laughat

He'll come back with some lame apologetic excuse, but the BEST explanation is that it's just a story that never happened.

There's also the story of where Satan tempts him in the wilderness. No one was there to witness that, the gospels are just making up stories because it's fan fiction.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-12-2016, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2016 08:48 AM by morondog.)
RE: Christian Doctrine
You guys aren't exactly following along with this true belief thing are you? Jesus obviously told his disciples without exaggeration exactly what happened, and they faithfully recorded it. This we know because the Bible aligns with the big bang, because evolution is a pack of lies, and because the gospel accounts disagree with each other, thus showing the sincerity and lack of bias of the authors. ETA: I forgot the seven sisters! The Bible says there are seven stars in the Pleiades. Therefore this is evidence that true things are written in it. By the way obviously false or extremely dodgy things like woman being made from a man's rib are... how *do* you explain them Bzltyr?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-12-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 08:45 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  The Gospels are another reason I believe.

What version of the bible are you using?
What edition?

If you're claiming these texts as basis for your belief, I think it's fair to let us know which ones you are reading.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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23-12-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 08:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 06:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  Bzltyr, I'm quoting this post to make absolutely sure that you read it. It's a long one, so make sure you read the whole thing. I know you came here to tell us The Truth, but if you can't answer the points raised in this post in particular then you've lost all hope of ever gaining a convert (speaking for myself).

Fun Question: When Jesus was alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, and talking to god (himself), who was there to witness what he said? If the Gospels are eye-witness accounts, who witnessed Jesus and his private conversation with god (himself)? Laughat

Or when Jesus was in the desert for 40 days and nights having a conversation with Satan. Or when Mary was told by the angel about her upcoming birth. Were the gospel writers in the room? Somehow I doubt it.

It's storytelling, nothing more.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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