Christian Doctrine
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23-12-2016, 10:21 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 10:06 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 08:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fun Question: When Jesus was alone in the Garden of Gethsemane, and talking to god (himself), who was there to witness what he said? If the Gospels are eye-witness accounts, who witnessed Jesus and his private conversation with god (himself)? Laughat

Or when Jesus was in the desert for 40 days and nights having a conversation with Satan. Or when Mary was told by the angel about her upcoming birth. Were the gospel writers in the room? Somehow I doubt it.

It's storytelling, nothing more.

What aggravates me about this is Jewish miracles that people need to "believe in" were generally performed in public. The miracles of the Exodus are depicted as being something that everyone could witness.

Why are Christian miracles carried out in such private seclusion?
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23-12-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 08:44 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: I forgot the seven sisters! The Bible says there are seven stars in the Pleiades.

Oh crap! How did I miss that bible mistake? Ok, now I need to see what the apologist excuses are for this clear cut example of biblical ignorance.

Found it, some of the most blatant post-hoc rationalizing I've seen:

Is the Astronomy in the Book of Job Scientifically Consistent?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-12-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(22-12-2016 09:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 09:21 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Aliza, Bzityr,

A number of things to note. 1) Christanity in its origins is Jewish. 2) Christianity therefore stands or falls with Judaism. 3)Torah Judism fell in 70 C.E. And has not yet been restored.

Now did I get something wrong here?

4 ) Neither of you have answered the issue of there not being any God.

I'm so sorry for not responding earlier.

Christianity is way more pagan than it is Jewish. We acknowledge very little similarity.
Yeah, the Catholic Churches and the likes. But denying that Christianity came out of Judaism does not make it not true. Christianity to have any validity is dependent on Judaism being true to begin with.
Quote:Torah Judaism is alive and well with the Karites, but your point is well taken. Karites have been around, but they're more of a revisionist movement these days. So what?
For some 1900 years Judaism has not followed its own G-d commanded Torah. Why is that? Is your G-d a broken toy? Blelieving what is not true does not make what is not true to be true.
Quote:I believe there is a G-d, because such belief makes sense to me.
How?
Quote:There really isn't much to say. It makes me happy and shouldn't bother anyone else.
Ok.

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

So basicly truth does not really matter to you.
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23-12-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
Bzityr,

Your plate is full. And most everyone here has you on rabbit trails.

Understand, none of your arguments mean much when it comes to truth, where the truth being there is no G-d.

So I am asking you, how do you deal with there being no G-d?
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23-12-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 10:57 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 09:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm so sorry for not responding earlier.

Christianity is way more pagan than it is Jewish. We acknowledge very little similarity.
Yeah, the Catholic Churches and the likes. But denying that Christianity came out of Judaism does not make it not true. Christianity to have any validity is dependent on Judaism being true to begin with.

Christianity came out of Judaism, but they didn’t adopt much Jewish theology. Maybe their moral code, but that’s all I can think of. Whether Judaism is true or not doesn’t impact Christianity because the theology of the two religions is not related. The only thing about Christian theology that I concern myself with is whether or not it can be considered a Jewish religion. I don’t believe it is. Therefore, it is a gentile religion.

(23-12-2016 10:57 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 09:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Torah Judaism is alive and well with the Karites, but your point is well taken. Karites have been around, but they're more of a revisionist movement these days. So what?
For some 1900 years Judaism has not followed its own G-d commanded Torah. Why is that? Is your G-d a broken toy? Blelieving what is not true does not make what is not true to be true.

Judaism is dependent on the oral tradition. We make no bones about that. Judaism is now, and has always been dependent on the oral traditions. We are satisfied that we are following our religion appropriately, and that our current practice of relying on the oral traditions has always been the normative practice for Judaism. If that’s not following the Torah to your satisfaction, then that’s perfectly fine. We’re not seeking anyone’s approval.

(23-12-2016 10:57 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(22-12-2016 09:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I believe there is a G-d, because such belief makes sense to me.
How?
Quote:There really isn't much to say. It makes me happy and shouldn't bother anyone else.
Ok.

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

So basicly truth does not really matter to you.

That was pretty snarky, but I'm going to try to be polite to you.

I’ve done my research, and I’m content that I’ve got the truth. That's it. That's the only explanation that I owe you because Judaism is not a religion that tries to market itself to gentiles. We're not out to "win souls" or anything of the sort. I'm not here on this forum to spread or even defend my religious beliefs. If you would like to have an intelligent conversation about what Judaism is, and what it is not, I may choose to engage with you. If it becomes something where you attack me for being a theist, for thinking differently than you do, or for failing to uphold Torah according to your personal standards, then I will move on to other conversations.
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23-12-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 11:31 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Bzityr,

Your plate is full. And most everyone here has you on rabbit trails.

Understand, none of your arguments mean much when it comes to truth, where the truth being there is no G-d.

So I am asking you, how do you deal with there being no G-d?

Why are you typing the word God like that?
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23-12-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 10:24 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 08:44 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: I forgot the seven sisters! The Bible says there are seven stars in the Pleiades.

Oh crap! How did I miss that bible mistake? Ok, now I need to see what the apologist excuses are for this clear cut example of biblical ignorance.

Found it, some of the most blatant post-hoc rationalizing I've seen:

Is the Astronomy in the Book of Job Scientifically Consistent?

Dont hold your breath, i am asking him for several pages now about the bible and the nine..err...seven sisters (amongst other things). He keeps ignoring it, as he keeps ignoring my demonstration of his lies and ignorance. It may be no surprise to you, that he is deliberately ignoring anything that doesnt agree with his delusion. Thats why he is constantly trying to bring new topics to the table. He probably thinks that will "outweigh" the evidence against him and his delusion.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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24-12-2016, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2016 11:59 AM by Peter Slevon.)
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 11:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 10:57 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Yeah, the Catholic Churches and the likes. But denying that Christianity came out of Judaism does not make it not true. Christianity to have any validity is dependent on Judaism being true to begin with.

Christianity came out of Judaism, but they didn’t adopt much Jewish theology. Maybe their moral code, but that’s all I can think of. Whether Judaism is true or not doesn’t impact Christianity because the theology of the two religions is not related. The only thing about Christian theology that I concern myself with is whether or not it can be considered a Jewish religion. I don’t believe it is. Therefore, it is a gentile religion.
OK. If that is how you see it. There being no God it does not reeally matter. Except for historical truth reasons.

(23-12-2016 11:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 10:57 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  For some 1900 years Judaism has not followed its own G-d commanded Torah. Why is that? Is your G-d a broken toy? Blelieving what is not true does not make what is not true to be true.

Judaism is dependent on the oral tradition. We make no bones about that. Judaism is now, and has always been dependent on the oral traditions. We are satisfied that we are following our religion appropriately, and that our current practice of relying on the oral traditions has always been the normative practice for Judaism. If that’s not following the Torah to your satisfaction, then that’s perfectly fine. We’re not seeking anyone’s approval.
Ah, let us play the telephone game. Whisper in one's ear a word or phrase. In the end it changes. LOL.

(23-12-2016 11:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 10:57 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  How?
Ok.

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

So basicly truth does not really matter to you.

That was pretty snarky, but I'm going to try to be polite to you.

I’ve done my research, and I’m content that I’ve got the truth. That's it. That's the only explanation that I owe you because Judaism is not a religion that tries to market itself to gentiles. We're not out to "win souls" or anything of the sort. I'm not here on this forum to spread or even defend my religious beliefs. If you would like to have an intelligent conversation about what Judaism is, and what it is not, I may choose to engage with you. If it becomes something where you attack me for being a theist, for thinking differently than you do, or for failing to uphold Torah according to your personal standards, then I will move on to other conversations.
Hmm, I'm being snarky. Well that was not my intent.
I do think it is good that one feels confident in what one believes is true. Here I am holding the view that there not being a God it really does not matter a whole lot if one believes in a none existent God or not. I do believe one should believe in what is true.

Is Judaism true? Certainly there is some true history there. Christianity has its roots in Judaism. Why do the gentile professing Christians believe in the Jewish Bible as true? If I am not mistaken the Christian religion has more divisions that any other.

You do understand, do you not, that there not being any God shows that those religions [Jewish, Christian, Islam etc] are false - at least on that point.

Christian universalists believe everyone will be saved, LOL. As I said else where, when we are dead, we will not know.

Do you not believe that truth is absolute?
Do you believe in the law of non-contradiction?
Do you not think it is important to know how we know what we know?
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24-12-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(23-12-2016 11:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 11:31 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Bzityr,

Your plate is full. And most everyone here has you on rabbit trails.

Understand, none of your arguments mean much when it comes to truth, where the truth being there is no G-d.

So I am asking you, how do you deal with there being no G-d?

Why are you typing the word God like that?
Some Jewish believers in God think they are avoiding breaking the 3rd commandment by so doing. The term 'God' is not the Name. I had no great reason to. But it seems I offenced you anyway Offence was not my intent. I just will not do here, OK?
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24-12-2016, 12:36 PM
RE: Christian Doctrine
(24-12-2016 11:44 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 11:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Christianity came out of Judaism, but they didn’t adopt much Jewish theology. Maybe their moral code, but that’s all I can think of. Whether Judaism is true or not doesn’t impact Christianity because the theology of the two religions is not related. The only thing about Christian theology that I concern myself with is whether or not it can be considered a Jewish religion. I don’t believe it is. Therefore, it is a gentile religion.
OK. If that is how you see it. There being no God it does not reeally matter. Except for historical truth reasons.

I'm most concerned about the denominations of Christianity that use fear and shame to sell their religions. They create a problem and then sell you their "patented" solution. The social practices in these particular demonstrations are unpalatable to me, and I can at least to my part to explain how Christianity didn't really come out of Judaism. If I can expose the falsehoods there, maybe some of these people can feel safe and secure in releasing these dangerous and manipulative religious practices that most certainly did not come out of my religion.

Whether they believe in G-d or not is not my concern at all. Why should it be?

(24-12-2016 11:44 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 11:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism is dependent on the oral tradition. We make no bones about that. Judaism is now, and has always been dependent on the oral traditions. We are satisfied that we are following our religion appropriately, and that our current practice of relying on the oral traditions has always been the normative practice for Judaism. If that’s not following the Torah to your satisfaction, then that’s perfectly fine. We’re not seeking anyone’s approval.
Ah, let us play the telephone game. Whisper in one's ear a word or phrase. In the end it changes. LOL.

Yes, that is exactly how Judaism works. It is meant to grow with society and the "old ways" are not intended to be clung to. -Which doesn't mean that they're never held onto, but this was not the original intention. Christianity wants for their old interpretations to be the one and only way to understand their bible, and they aggressively defend literal and original interpretations. That isn't a Jewish value at all.

(24-12-2016 11:44 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(23-12-2016 11:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  That was pretty snarky, but I'm going to try to be polite to you.

I’ve done my research, and I’m content that I’ve got the truth. That's it. That's the only explanation that I owe you because Judaism is not a religion that tries to market itself to gentiles. We're not out to "win souls" or anything of the sort. I'm not here on this forum to spread or even defend my religious beliefs. If you would like to have an intelligent conversation about what Judaism is, and what it is not, I may choose to engage with you. If it becomes something where you attack me for being a theist, for thinking differently than you do, or for failing to uphold Torah according to your personal standards, then I will move on to other conversations.
Hmm, I'm being snarky. Well that was not my intent.
I do think it is good that one feels confident in what one believes is true. Here I am holding the view that there not being a God it really does not matter a whole lot if one believes in a none existent God or not. I do believe one should believe in what is true.

Is Judaism true? Certainly there is some true history there. Christianity has its roots in Judaism. Why do the gentile professing Christians believe in the Jewish Bible as true? If I am not mistaken the Christian religion has more divisions that any other.

Judaism is true for Jews. It's not meant for anyone else.

Many, if not all, Christians use the Jewish bible to "prove" that Jesus was the messiah. Their proof texts are taken out of context or deliberately mistranslated for the purpose of painting Jesus into the Jewish scripture. I frankly don't know why they believe it's true, except for the reason I mentioned above. Their scholars have deliberately mistranslated it and "painted' Jesus into it, so the Christians are dazzled by the apparent prophecy that it holds.

I try to do my part to point out that those "prophecies" are not native to the text.

(24-12-2016 11:44 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  You do understand, do you not, that there not being any God shows that those religions [Jewish, Christian, Islam etc] are false - at least on that point.

I believe that there is a G-d, but even if there isn't, my life doesn't change. Neither does yours. Nothing changes, so think what you want. Think what makes you happy. Be a good person, find pleasure in everything that you do, and you will live a good life. What else is there?

(24-12-2016 11:44 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Christian universalists believe everyone will be saved, LOL. As I said else where, when we are dead, we will not know.
I'm not sure why you mentioned salvation. It's certainly not a Jewish concept.

(24-12-2016 11:44 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Do you not believe that truth is absolute?
Do you believe in the law of non-contradiction?
Do you not think it is important to know how we know what we know?

1. There can be multiple truths at once. Judaism does not teach that Judaism is true for everyone. It's really just a way of life that is intended for Jews only. What other people believe and how they live their lives is, for the most part, not a Jewish concern.

2. I'm not really sure how the law of non-contradiction applies to religion. I suppose to best answer that, I'd say that things may seem to contradict even if we don't know all of the factors going into the equation. Gravity always pulls you to the ground until you put on your anti-gravity boots. That may appear contradictory to someone who doesn't understand.

3. No, I don't think it's important. I think we can choose to study how we know what we know, but that we can live perfectly functional lives even if we do not know.
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