Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
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20-01-2017, 09:57 AM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
It isn't just Christian fundamentalism that is changing. Religion itself (sometimes against some fierce opposition) is changing, (ie the "moderate-liberal" wings of Catholicism, Anglicanism, and all the other major religious groups) would be almost unrecognizable to their own people from 100 years ago.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-01-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 09:21 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(20-01-2017 07:59 AM)mordant Wrote:  It should be pointed out that it is not just fundamentalist Christians who home school. Others including atheists do it also. There are arguments to be made that public schools (or at least some of them) are not that terrific.

I have to admit that if I had school-aged children, I would much prefer to take a hand's-on approach to their schooling, through travel and experiences, rather than having them stuffed in a classroom with 30+ other snot-nosed little rats and an overpaid teacher who only got into teaching because she knew she'd get lots of time off and an indexed pension.

(20-01-2017 09:21 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  overpaid teacher

Excuse me, but what world are you living in. My husband is a teacher. He's intelligent, well educated, resourceful, hard working and dedicated to his profession. But there's on thing he isn't. He's NOT well paid and to say he's overpaid is laughable. If he worked as hard in the private sector as he does as a teacher he'd get paid twice as much, maybe even three times as much.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-01-2017, 10:38 AM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 10:09 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(20-01-2017 09:21 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  overpaid teacher

Excuse me, but what world are you living in. My husband is a teacher. He's intelligent, well educated, resourceful, hard working and dedicated to his profession. But there's on thing he isn't. He's NOT well paid and to say he's overpaid is laughable. If he worked as hard in the private sector as he does as a teacher he'd get paid twice as much, maybe even three times as much.

I guess it depends where you live. My father was a teacher (in Ontario, Canada). Even he said that he was overpaid.
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20-01-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 09:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It isn't just Christian fundamentalism that is changing. Religion itself (sometimes against some fierce opposition) is changing, (ie the "moderate-liberal" wings of Catholicism, Anglicanism, and all the other major religious groups) would be almost unrecognizable to their own people from 100 years ago.
Yes, religion always evolves. Even Catholicism managed to admit it was wrong about Galileo, even though it took them a few hundred years to do so.

I guess it just seems more impressive to me that even fundamentalism is changing, even though I knew intellectually it always has, and even though I knew of specific ways in which it had ... somehow the notion that they would begin to splinter over substantive doctrinal issues is something I hadn't really expected. Of course there will always be the orthodox who will claim to carry on the torch and will brand the others as heretics, but still.

It works in the other direction, too. It's little known or remembered today, but the evangelical community was not always meaningfully and vocally opposed to abortion. The joke is that "pro life" is a doctrine that's younger than the McDonald's Happy Meal.

So evangelicals are becoming both more conservative / separatist, and less so. Pulling apart like taffy.

Really my original motivation for this post was to just encourage people to make more effort to suss out the actual beliefs of a fundamentalist they are debating before assuming too much, and not to treat them like a monolithic bloc.

Also, fora like this tends to attract more fringe / eclectic types than probably reflect the evangelical mainstream, which makes it more likely you will encounter these divergent views here. My guess is that centrist fundamentalists keep more to their own echo chambers than coming into the lion's den like this.
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20-01-2017, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2017 05:51 PM by Kernel Sohcahtoa.)
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
mordant Wrote:I guess it just seems more impressive to me that even fundamentalism is changing, even though I knew intellectually it always has, and even though I knew of specific ways in which it had ... somehow the notion that they would begin to splinter over substantive doctrinal issues is something I hadn't really expected. Of course there will always be the orthodox who will claim to carry on the torch and will brand the others as heretics, but still.

Thanks for this thread, Mordant. Regarding changes in human thought, I'm often reminded of the concept of a power set (IMO, a cool concept from discrete mathematics), which is the set of all the subsets of a given set. Naturally, as more elements in the power set are combined with each other, the actual totality of the set and what it represents, becomes much clearer, and as a result, progress is made. Hence, IMO, people who assert their way of thinking as true while remaining closed off to other ways of thinking, hinder humanity's ability to form new, exciting subsets of thought that could bring humanity that much closer toward gaining a better, clearer understanding of reality.

Live long and prosper, sir.

"I'm fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason." Klaatu, from The Day The Earth Stood Still (1951)
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20-01-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 10:38 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(20-01-2017 10:09 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Excuse me, but what world are you living in. My husband is a teacher. He's intelligent, well educated, resourceful, hard working and dedicated to his profession. But there's on thing he isn't. He's NOT well paid and to say he's overpaid is laughable. If he worked as hard in the private sector as he does as a teacher he'd get paid twice as much, maybe even three times as much.

I guess it depends where you live. My father was a teacher (in Ontario, Canada). Even he said that he was overpaid.

Not in the US. It's hard to get people who are qualified to teach because most of the qualified people go into the private sector and make much more money for much less aggravation. There's something like a 50% drop out rate of teachers in the first 2 or 3 years. I'd have to recheck that statistic but it's very high.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-01-2017, 06:49 PM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 10:38 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(20-01-2017 10:09 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Excuse me, but what world are you living in. My husband is a teacher. He's intelligent, well educated, resourceful, hard working and dedicated to his profession. But there's on thing he isn't. He's NOT well paid and to say he's overpaid is laughable. If he worked as hard in the private sector as he does as a teacher he'd get paid twice as much, maybe even three times as much.

I guess it depends where you live. My father was a teacher (in Ontario, Canada). Even he said that he was overpaid.

When I was hired as an emergency replacement teacher in my local school system, I made a little more than $40/hour working part-time. That's a middle class wage, but not a high middle class wage. It's less than I make teaching students privately, one-on-one. And it's way, way harder to teach 10 fourth graders saxophone than it is to teach one private student.

The public school teachers I know are mostly music teachers. They work from 7 a.m.-3:30-4 p.m., five days a week, except for the couple of days a week that they work from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. because they are also doing a night rehearsal or a concert, and most fall weekend they work Friday night for the football game and then another weekend day for marching band competitions, and in the winter and spring one day most weekends is devoted to taking kids in band to auditions or music festivals. They routinely put in 50-60+ hour work weeks and and generally make from $40-70K per year. That's on par with or below the standard compensation in professions like law, medicine, and accountancy.

I do have friends in Canada who complain that the teachers there clear out of the building immediately after school ends every day, but this is not true in my area.

There are certainly issues with teachers, including that bad teachers are unduly protected instead of being forced out of the profession (just like bad cops and bad doctors), but, at least in the US, being overpaid for the work they do is not one of them.
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20-01-2017, 10:04 PM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 06:49 PM)julep Wrote:  
(20-01-2017 10:38 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  I guess it depends where you live. My father was a teacher (in Ontario, Canada). Even he said that he was overpaid.

When I was hired as an emergency replacement teacher in my local school system, I made a little more than $40/hour working part-time. That's a middle class wage, but not a high middle class wage. It's less than I make teaching students privately, one-on-one. And it's way, way harder to teach 10 fourth graders saxophone than it is to teach one private student.

The public school teachers I know are mostly music teachers. They work from 7 a.m.-3:30-4 p.m., five days a week, except for the couple of days a week that they work from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. because they are also doing a night rehearsal or a concert, and most fall weekend they work Friday night for the football game and then another weekend day for marching band competitions, and in the winter and spring one day most weekends is devoted to taking kids in band to auditions or music festivals. They routinely put in 50-60+ hour work weeks and and generally make from $40-70K per year. That's on par with or below the standard compensation in professions like law, medicine, and accountancy.

I do have friends in Canada who complain that the teachers there clear out of the building immediately after school ends every day, but this is not true in my area.

There are certainly issues with teachers, including that bad teachers are unduly protected instead of being forced out of the profession (just like bad cops and bad doctors), but, at least in the US, being overpaid for the work they do is not one of them.

Pardon the word, but Amen. My mother worked as a public school teacher in West Virginia for 35 years. She had a Bachelors and Masters in it, a specialization in Special Ed and English, 60+ hours of continuing education, etc. and still, by the time of her retirement, made less than the 54k I do a year as a starting out Assistant Professor in Social Sciences. Once you throw in all the extra time spent at home or school beyond what the work day technically required, she was pulling 60-70 hour weeks every week, and did a lot of stuff unpaid over the summer as well.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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21-01-2017, 12:15 AM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
(20-01-2017 10:04 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(20-01-2017 06:49 PM)julep Wrote:  When I was hired as an emergency replacement teacher in my local school system, I made a little more than $40/hour working part-time. That's a middle class wage, but not a high middle class wage. It's less than I make teaching students privately, one-on-one. And it's way, way harder to teach 10 fourth graders saxophone than it is to teach one private student.

The public school teachers I know are mostly music teachers. They work from 7 a.m.-3:30-4 p.m., five days a week, except for the couple of days a week that they work from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. because they are also doing a night rehearsal or a concert, and most fall weekend they work Friday night for the football game and then another weekend day for marching band competitions, and in the winter and spring one day most weekends is devoted to taking kids in band to auditions or music festivals. They routinely put in 50-60+ hour work weeks and and generally make from $40-70K per year. That's on par with or below the standard compensation in professions like law, medicine, and accountancy.

I do have friends in Canada who complain that the teachers there clear out of the building immediately after school ends every day, but this is not true in my area.

There are certainly issues with teachers, including that bad teachers are unduly protected instead of being forced out of the profession (just like bad cops and bad doctors), but, at least in the US, being overpaid for the work they do is not one of them.

Pardon the word, but Amen. My mother worked as a public school teacher in West Virginia for 35 years. She had a Bachelors and Masters in it, a specialization in Special Ed and English, 60+ hours of continuing education, etc. and still, by the time of her retirement, made less than the 54k I do a year as a starting out Assistant Professor in Social Sciences. Once you throw in all the extra time spent at home or school beyond what the work day technically required, she was pulling 60-70 hour weeks every week, and did a lot of stuff unpaid over the summer as well.

Don't forget that a lot of teachers give their own money to help with school supplies. My father was both a teacher and the school principal in a very small school district and one time helped pay for a student's funeral who died in a car accident.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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21-01-2017, 05:21 AM
RE: Christian Fundamentalism is Mutating
In case anyone's curious... our founder covered this topic in his usual outstanding manner, in one of his public speeches that I happened to watch today.





Edit: Not the schoolteachers thing. Totally in agreement on that. Undecided

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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