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02-02-2015, 06:12 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2015 09:56 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Christian Scientists
(31-01-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 10:03 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  How is it possible to be a christian and also a scientist at the same time?

Me no understand

The same way it's possible to be a scientist and and an anti-theist, or a scientist and a dewey-eyed humanist.

No actually it's not the same. Neither anti-theism nor humanism require the active belief in the supernatural, the superstitious, or the blatantly ridiculous that Christianity does.

Christianity and it's focus on faith, and the under current of hostility towards knowledge rampant through out the bible as a whole, is not just incompatable with modern science they are highly antagonistic of each other. A sentiment Galileo and many others learned much to their own misfortune.

Cognitive dissonance and willful self delusion are the only ways to house both in one mind without one overpowering and slaying the other.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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03-02-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Christian Scientists
(02-02-2015 06:12 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 10:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The same way it's possible to be a scientist and and an anti-theist, or a scientist and a dewey-eyed humanist.

No actually it's not the same. Neither anti-theism nor humanism require the active belief in the supernatural, the superstitious, or the blatantly ridiculous that Christianity does.

Christianity and it's focus on faith, and the under current of hostility towards knowledge rampant through out the bible as a whole, is not just incompatable with modern science they are highly antagonistic of each other. A sentiment Galileo and many others learned much to their own misfortune.

Cognitive dissonance and willful self delusion are the only ways to house both in one mind without one overpowering and slaying the other.

Yes, Galileo was persecuted by Roman Catholics. But the Bible says throughout things like "With all your getting, gain wisdom... gain wisdom that you may live a long and fruitful life... seek knowledge diligently..." Jesus said to love God but added to the Torah command love God with all your mind... both testaments praise learning and knowledge. Christians in the West did many wonderful achievements and Judaism is known for its emphasis on learning, knowledge and discourse.

Yes, less than 1% of scripture contains the miraculous. But your statement that the Bible is somehow anti-knowledge or anti-education doesn't in any way line up with the tradition of Jewish and Christian seminaries and schools. Not at all.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-02-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Christian Scientists
(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, less than 1% of scripture contains the miraculous. But your statement that the Bible is somehow anti-knowledge or anti-education doesn't in any way line up with the tradition of Jewish and Christian seminaries and schools. Not at all.

Yes it does line up. The only knowledge encouraged by each religions scriptures are of the wants of their god of choice. You are being dishonest if you think that churchs do not discourage learning any concepts in science that contradict the texts, and may result in loss or diminished faith. Christianity is closed to any science that does not mesh with the wacko beliefs. C'mon you know that Q.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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04-02-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Christian Scientists
That Q guy needs stronger arguements to win me over I feel.
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04-02-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: Christian Scientists
(03-02-2015 12:43 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, less than 1% of scripture contains the miraculous. But your statement that the Bible is somehow anti-knowledge or anti-education doesn't in any way line up with the tradition of Jewish and Christian seminaries and schools. Not at all.

Yes it does line up. The only knowledge encouraged by each religions scriptures are of the wants of their god of choice. You are being dishonest if you think that churchs do not discourage learning any concepts in science that contradict the texts, and may result in loss or diminished faith. Christianity is closed to any science that does not mesh with the wacko beliefs. C'mon you know that Q.

Yet, I've heard dozens of commentators online, on TV and in print and offline, saying over and again that science is to be studied, enjoyed, relished and promulgated and that where the science and scripture differ either 1) the adherent is misunderstanding the scripture 2) over time, as has happened many times before, eventually scientists will reach a new understanding and change the science to match the scriptures.

As a matter of fact, when Christians speak in the manner which you've observed, their children tend to run like hell from Christianity as adults in high school/college. My wife and I adore the sciences (she's more math/biology and I'm more the social sciences buff) and always and often teach our kids science.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-02-2015, 05:45 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 11:35 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Christian Scientists
(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, Galileo was persecuted by Roman Catholics.
First off you can take your veiled attempt at the No true Scotsman Fallacy and shove it up your ass you evasive lil' shit. CHRISTIANS have persecuted members of the scientific community since the beginning of the religions existence. Not just Catholics you sniveling little coward.


(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But the Bible says throughout things like "With all your getting, gain wisdom... gain wisdom that you may live a long and fruitful life... seek knowledge diligently..."
You are welcome to cherry pick poor examples all you like but as I've told you several times now "The bible says.." means fucking nothing. I can easily go in to the Bible and find entire narrative elements that are anti-intellectual. Entire stances on subjects that are anti-intellectual and show a great disdain for knowledge and education.
I'm starting to think you know utterly nothing about the Bible other then what you have been told about it.

Tell me if I gain wisdom and education to the point, as I have, that the existence of a god becomes untenable and even laughably infantile as is the case with the Christian god what does your Idiot's Tome say should happen to me? Oh that's right! I'm to be murdered. You are perfectly free to gain wisdom and knowledge but only so long as it leads to the pre-approved answers. Otherwise we kill you.

That's a great system for scientific inquiry.


(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus said to love God but added to the Torah command love God with all your mind...
[Image: triple_facepalm_by_spottedheart98464-d3kuyp3.png]
Commanding people, under an already established threat of unending torture, what to believe and how much you should believe it.......is anti-knowledge, anti-education, and more over a basic violation of the freedom of thought.
Your quoted sentiment is to be reviled, not revered you vile little monkey. Just because it has the word "mind" in the sentence does not mean it's pro-knowledge. Q. Seriously bro. Your being fucking stupid, step your game up son.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  both testaments praise learning and knowledge.
They do nothing of the sort especially the latter of the two. Fawning platitudes are of little value when I can drag the dregs of your Idiots Tome and find a dozen examples of anti-intellectualism. Your excuses do not hold either value or water.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Christians in the West did many wonderful achievements
A pointless observation if not a boorishly common one. Individual people doing things does not change the content of your Idiot's Tome, a point I need not even make with the weight of the crimes against free and open thought throughout millennia of human existence by the self same people.
Or am I to believe that the increase in standards of education, the freedom of speech and thought, and the decrease in persecution of intellectuals just happens to correspond with the decrease in religiosity and it's strangle hold are just what..coincidence? No, fuck you it's not the educated trying to dismantle scientific education in American schools. It's not atheists and humanists refusing to send their kids to public schools and collages out of fear of what they might learn. It's not the Humanists standing in the way of many important advancements in medical sciences. It's not humanists and atheists on the whole who persecute and attack the LBGT community. It's not humanists or atheists that routinely advocate for a subservient role in society for women. It's Christians. And not just Catholics asshole.

Your entire religion and all it's scriptures is steeped in the miasma of ignorance from whence it came. It's the product of a barbaric, uncivilized, uneducated time in human history and those that still cling to it's idiocy, no matter how much they try to dishonestly twist it to fit modern life as you do, bare the stamp of that selfsame barbarism and ignorance.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  and Judaism is known for its emphasis on learning, knowledge and discourse.
..he says of a culture with a history of animal sacrificing, superstition, warmongering, genocidal savagery, and a propensity to fabricate entire sections of their own history.
Judaism is known for a lot of things, none of which changes the anti-intellectual content of their religious writings or yours.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, less than 1% of scripture contains the miraculous.
The entire Jesus story is based on superstitious, unsubstantiated, and demonstrably false information. The entire biblical narrative, from start to finish, requires the suspension of critical thinking to find yourself in a position to believe it as true.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But your statement that the Bible is somehow anti-knowledge or anti-education doesn't in any way line up with the tradition of Jewish and Christian seminaries and schools. Not at all.
Why should I in any way care about the traditions of the ignorant, in regards to a book written by the ignorant for the ignorant, on how ignorant they and the book are? Or am I to be impressed that, when talking about themselves and their own beliefs, they say they are not ignorant? Is it for realzies?

If I wanted to know anything about the content and the quality of a book I'm not going to ask the fanboys in their fucking base of operations you time wasting tit. I'm not likely to get an unbiased and thoroughly educated examination of the books by talking to them, a fact you continue to aptly display on a daily fucking basis.

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05-02-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: Christian Scientists
Damn Q you just got gang raped in the shower by one person.

Is that possible you say? Apparently so.

Whiskey Debates = Whiskey Ass Rapes
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05-02-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Christian Scientists
(04-02-2015 05:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, Galileo was persecuted by Roman Catholics.
First off you can take your veiled attempt at the No true Scotsman Fallacy and shove it up your ass you evasive lil' shit. CHRISTIANS have persecuted members of the scientific community since the beginning of the religions existence. Not just Catholics you sniveling little coward.


(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But the Bible says throughout things like "With all your getting, gain wisdom... gain wisdom that you may live a long and fruitful life... seek knowledge diligently..."
You are welcome to cherry pick poor examples all you like but as I've told you several times now "The bible says.." means fucking nothing. I can easily go in to the Bible and find entire narrative elements that are anti-intellectual. Entire stances on subjects that are anti-intellectual and show a great disdain for knowledge and education.
I'm starting to think you know utterly nothing about the Bible other then what you have been told about it.

Tell me if I gain wisdom and education to the point, as I have, that the existence of a god becomes untenable and even laughably infantile as is the case with the Christian god what does your Idiot's Tome say should happen to me? Oh that's right! I'm to be murdered. You are perfectly free to gain wisdom and knowledge but only so long as it leads to the pre-approved answers. Otherwise we kill you.

That's a great system for scientific inquiry.


(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus said to love God but added to the Torah command love God with all your mind...
[Image: triple_facepalm_by_spottedheart98464-d3kuyp3.png]
Commanding people, under an already established threat of unending torture, what to believe and how much you should believe it.......is anti-knowledge, anti-education, and more over a basic violation of the freedom of thought.
Your quoted sentiment is to be reviled, not revered you vile little monkey. Just because it has the word "mind" in the sentence does not mean it's pro-knowledge. Q. Seriously bro. Your being fucking stupid, step your game up son.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  both testaments praise learning and knowledge.
They do nothing of the sort especially the latter of the two. Fawning platitudes are of little value when I can drag the dregs of your Idiots Tome and find a dozen examples of anti-intellectualism. Your excuses do not hold either value or water.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Christians in the West did many wonderful achievements
A pointless observation if not a boorishly common one. Individual people doing things does not change the content of your Idiot's Tome, a point I need not even make with the weight of the crimes against free and open thought throughout millennia of human existence by the self same people.
Or am I to believe that the increase in standards of education, the freedom of speech and thought, and the decrease in persecution of intellectuals just happens to correspond with the decrease in religiosity and it's strangle hold are just what..coincidence? No, fuck you it's not the educated trying to dismantle scientific education in American schools. It's not atheists and humanists refusing to send their kids to public schools and collages out of fear of what they might learn. It's not the Humanists standing in the way of many important advancements in medical sciences. It's not humanists and atheists on the whole who persecute and attack the LBGT community. It's not humanists or atheists that routinely advocate for a subservient role in society for women. It's Christians. And not just Catholics asshole.

Your entire religion and all it's scriptures is steeped in the miasma of ignorance from whence it came. It's the product of a barbaric, uncivilized, uneducated time in human history and those that still cling to it's idiocy, no matter how much they try to dishonestly twist it to fit modern life as you do, bare the stamp of that selfsame barbarism and ignorance.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  and Judaism is known for its emphasis on learning, knowledge and discourse.
..he says of a culture with a history of animal sacrificing, superstition, warmongering, genocidal savagery, and a propensity to fabricate entire sections of their own history.
Judaism is known for a lot of things, none of which changes the anti-intellectual content of their religious writings or yours.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, less than 1% of scripture contains the miraculous.
The entire Jesus story is based on superstitious, unsubstantiated, and demonstrably false information. The entire biblical narrative, from start to finish, requires the suspension of critical thinking to find yourself in a position to believe it as true.

(03-02-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But your statement that the Bible is somehow anti-knowledge or anti-education doesn't in any way line up with the tradition of Jewish and Christian seminaries and schools. Not at all.
Why should I in any way care about the traditions of the ignorant, in regards to a book written by the ignorant for the ignorant, on how ignorant they and the book are? Or am I to be impressed that, when talking about themselves and their own beliefs, they say they are not ignorant? Is it for realzies?

If I wanted to know anything about the content and the quality of a book I'm not going to ask the fanboys in their fucking base of operations you time wasting tit. I'm not likely to get an unbiased and thoroughly educated examination of the books by talking to them, a fact you continue to aptly display on a daily fucking basis.

There's a lot you're insisting upon that is off base. I'm sorry your thinking seems to be colored by your passion. First, you made an outrageous statement that Christians have from their inception persecuted the sciences. You mean the 1st century Christians, the apostles, and Jesus? Rather than persecute, as with all other people groups, they preached. You seem intolerant of ideas other than your own. Paul wasn't and was able therefore to enter the Gentile marketplace of ideas, and even the Areopagus, and while some doubted the resurrection (of course, that would be natural) others were converted. I would also have trouble reconciling Jesus's and Paul's admonitions to live in obedience to ruling authorities rather than be seditionists to line up with anything other than accepting the sciences and academies of their day wholly. In fact, Jesus spoke in the temple and debated there (the center of ancient Israel's academia and intelligentsia) and Paul preached at one school/academy and taught there for two years' time.

Then you make a statement about "the entire Bible narrative" as out of touch, but while I can understand an atheist having difficulties indeed with Genesis and Revelation--the Bible is actually dozens and dozens of cultural, political, religious, etc. narratives, plural, and to take even the most liberal view of the scriptures, some kind of Jesus Seminar way-out view, is to still insist that at least seven different groups authored it. Are all seven off? Are all 66 books? What was the purpose of seven different priestly groups and scribes in composing these narratives, I wonder? I mean, I really do. If atheists are correct, these are multiple competing political and religious schools of thought composing what is thousands of pages in the English language. There's no reason to do so in some arbitrary fashion. Islam is Muhammed. The Bible is dozens of writers.

The rest of your post is invective that has no place among civilized and educated folk. Do you feel a little better pouring your hate on another because they are religious? I feel no scorn toward you, only I urge you to trust Christ.

And if you despise me because you feel I'm being unintellectual in my approach, let me assure you that while I'm definitely a doctrinaire, I'm neither a troll nor an ignoramus. I have a reasonable IQ, education and respect for learning and for teaching. I'm fascinated by the pursuit of knowledge itself, and I would tell you--not in anger--as a friend--that if you keep spewing hate on everyone atheist or otherwise at TTA you will retard your own learning, memory and knowledge base.

A tranquil heart is life to the body, But passion is rottenness to the bones. -- Proverbs 14:30

If it makes you feel relief to take out your anger on me at TTA, fine. I think (sometimes) that is God's gift to another, to let a Christian play Snoopy to Charlie Brown's hurts. But if you want me to keep on answering your truth claims, please be a little more respectful.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-02-2015, 05:33 AM
RE: Christian Scientists
Personally I see no reason Christianity and science cannot coexist even today. A long as the individual can maintain their objectivity and keep their faith separate to their science; it should not be a problem.

The problem arises when an individual tries to apply both to a single premise. I know a Christian scientist couple and have had many great engagements with them on topics of religion, science and why the two should not meet. Perhaps my friend is atypical of the denomination, as she keeps her work and beliefs apart (she is a biologist who works in marine disease research).

my opinion on the CS brigade is that they are all completely wacko; and it should not be considered a bona fide religion as its more like a pyramid sales scheme; with fancier language.

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06-02-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Christian Scientists
(06-02-2015 05:33 AM)costabunny Wrote:  Personally I see no reason Christianity and science cannot coexist even today. A long as the individual can maintain their objectivity and keep their faith separate to their science; it should not be a problem.

The problem arises when an individual tries to apply both to a single premise. I know a Christian scientist couple and have had many great engagements with them on topics of religion, science and why the two should not meet. Perhaps my friend is atypical of the denomination, as she keeps her work and beliefs apart (she is a biologist who works in marine disease research).

my opinion on the CS brigade is that they are all completely wacko; and it should not be considered a bona fide religion as its more like a pyramid sales scheme; with fancier language.

As a scientist, I can tell you that you can't be intellectually honest and do this. That would be akin to a biologist saying that they believe in evolution completely for every animal except for humans. They really don't go together. One can't simply ignore things because it is too inconvenient.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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