Christian medicine fails yet again.
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21-09-2012, 11:17 AM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
THIS IS A MOTHER FUCKING OUTRAGE!!! THOSE GOD DAMN IRRESPONSIBLE, NEGLECTFUL, GREEDY ASSHOLES!!!

WHERE DO THEY GET OFF HAVING 7 DAMN KIDS!!! THAT IS WAY WAY WAY TOO MANY!
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21-09-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
The fact that any parent would object to medical treatment without hesitation for their dying child makes them a murderer.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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23-09-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
This is the foundation of all religious belief. When humans are limited there must be a god who can do something. As he/she is a god, he/she can decide to help or not and we can't judge the outcome.

Pay no attention to the statistics that for the most part prove divine intervention does not take place. The most famous study was conducted by the church during the black plague. It was believed that the faithful would be spared god's wrath. It turns out that religious affiliation had no statistical effect on the outcome. No surprise there.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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23-09-2012, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2012 02:21 PM by depat.)
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
I remember as a Fundamentalist Christian (can't believe I was ever there in that that kind of thinking) how confusing prayer was, when praying and even fasting for accutely important needs did not deliver results. Kinger is right: delivery and nondelivery had answers. One of the answers to failed prayer was that the petitioner was not "quite right with god," this from the view ofr others and/ or of oneself-sad. But the truth is, more Christians, than will admit, have a great deal of trouble keeping the faith over failed prayer. I will say that most that leave the faith leave over failed prayer.

What is amazing is "answered prayer inequality." The following are only three very common results from actual prayers from three different supplicants: " I just praise god for answereing my prayer for the rapid healing of my broken leg", "I just praise god for answering my prayer for new furniture", "I just praise god for knowing what is best for my raped 6 year old daughter even when through my prayer for her healing and protection she was raped again; I just know that the hand of god is on her, and he has all the answers." These prayers are so sadly common.
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24-09-2012, 09:23 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 09:28 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
I'm glad the couple got arrested, for a moment I was losing faith in the court and law, considering that faith "healing" is a recognized crime in some U.S. states at least. I'm pretty sure the initial delay and probation was due to the judge hesitating to make the other 6 children parentless, that is not a decision to be taken lightly. But apparently with such parents they were just waiting for another disease to come and take them down. I wonder if they were even vaccinated.

What is it with doctors that people think it's either them or God? I don't remember anywhere in Bible that God would promise to heal people. It always took Jesus to do the job, usually pretty close up in person. Actually, it was often God dishing out the plagues and pestilence.
OTOH, Jesus says that God will provide food and clothing without work (birds and lillies in the field) and yet Christians have no problem with getting a job.

It must be the science bit that makes the difference. The science of godless blasphemers heals people but brutally insults God's feelings. He must be thinking, (using Yahweh's deep voice and the whole character)
"What the fuck is happening?! Looks like you guys don't need me anymore! Consider Or rather, you don't trust Me that I could fix such a trifle as a bursting appendix Sadcryface All right, I won't intrude if you don't want Me to, have a nice day, see you in Hell burning forever! Angry Oooh, they don't trust Me anymore, not even with their children's lives, the good old days of Abraham shall never return Weeping"
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24-09-2012, 10:47 AM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
Luminon's picure is pretty, now I'm stuck here.

The parents are crazy. Somewhere in the bible it says not to test their God. So asking fo rhelp will not get anything done. Derp. Also, how messed up do you have to be to endure the sight of your son dying and just sit and talk to nothing.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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25-09-2012, 12:37 PM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
(24-09-2012 10:47 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Also, how messed up do you have to be to endure the sight of your son dying and just sit and talk to nothing.

That's not fair. You believe they are talking to nothing. I believe they are talking to nothing. (Maybe "believe" is not quite the right word).

But they believe they are, in fact, talking to something. Something omnipotent and omnibenevolent who loves them all and will take care of them. They, at least, have no doubts on the truth of this (I'm assuming that if they did have doubts they would have taken their son to a doctor - I would have to be certain, doubt-free, of my chosen cure before I declined a different certain cure for my children).

So I think what you meant to ask was "How messed up do you have to be to delude yourself into the belief in a mythological supernatural friend in the sky to the point that you're willing to endure the sight of your son dying while you just sit and talk to your sky friend?"

That's an entirely different question, and judging by the billions of people who share similar delusions (although few expect their delusion to transcend or replace modern medicine), I think it's safe to say that the majority of mankind is just this messed up.

In fact, I suggest that if these parents had lived elsewhere or simply found a different church than this one, they would have responded in a more mainstream fashion by seeking medical help - so in essence, they are just as messed up as most of mankind but had the bad luck to be indoctrinated in a radical no-medicine cult rather than a slightly more reasonable, benign one.

It doesn't condone their criminal behavior, but I think it's only fair to look at the root cause behind it rather than just bashing them for doing what, at the core, billions of other humans do - follow their basic religious indoctrination.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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25-09-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
(25-09-2012 12:37 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 10:47 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Also, how messed up do you have to be to endure the sight of your son dying and just sit and talk to nothing.

That's not fair. You believe they are talking to nothing. I believe they are talking to nothing. (Maybe "believe" is not quite the right word).

But they believe they are, in fact, talking to something. Something omnipotent and omnibenevolent who loves them all and will take care of them. They, at least, have no doubts on the truth of this (I'm assuming that if they did have doubts they would have taken their son to a doctor - I would have to be certain, doubt-free, of my chosen cure before I declined a different certain cure for my children).

So I think what you meant to ask was "How messed up do you have to be to delude yourself into the belief in a mythological supernatural friend in the sky to the point that you're willing to endure the sight of your son dying while you just sit and talk to your sky friend?"

That's an entirely different question, and judging by the billions of people who share similar delusions (although few expect their delusion to transcend or replace modern medicine), I think it's safe to say that the majority of mankind is just this messed up.

In fact, I suggest that if these parents had lived elsewhere or simply found a different church than this one, they would have responded in a more mainstream fashion by seeking medical help - so in essence, they are just as messed up as most of mankind but had the bad luck to be indoctrinated in a radical no-medicine cult rather than a slightly more reasonable, benign one.

It doesn't condone their criminal behavior, but I think it's only fair to look at the root cause behind it rather than just bashing them for doing what, at the core, billions of other humans do - follow their basic religious indoctrination.

But it what substantive way is this different from someone who believes God commands him to kill people and acts on it?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-09-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Christian medicine fails yet again.
(25-09-2012 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  But it what substantive way is this different from someone who believes God commands him to kill people and acts on it?

It's not different.

Neither is pardonable nor do I condone either behavior.

My point was that to simply point at someone following their own crazy god delusion and calling them "messed up" because that person's own delusion is different than the more mainstream delusions is a bit off target.

Those parents who let their son die because of their religious beliefs are really, fundamentally, no more "messed up" than the two billion other Christians in the world. The only real difference is that these particular parents were indoctrinated and brain-washed into a much more radical god delusion than the mainstream Christian. But compare these parents to the pope who went to doctors when he was shot, they are both equally deluded, equally indoctrinated. One is not more "messed up" than the other.

It's simply that these parents are indoctrinated into a comparatively ridiculous sect (I guess I mean "more ridiculous"). Other than that, they followed their beliefs no differently than any other Christian who follows his beliefs.

And more to the point, I was trying to suggest that they firmly believed they were not "talking to nothing."

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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