Christian persecution
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31-07-2015, 04:03 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So gay bakers should be forced under threat of a $135,000 fine to bake a cake on which is written, "God Hates Fags" just because certain members of the public want it? According to your logic they should because they operate in a fucking service industry that caters to the public. Of course this is silly.

The issue is not the message on the cake, dickhead. The article you linked states that the people flat out refused to serve them. If a gay baker refused to serve a Christian couple *that* would be discrimination.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-07-2015, 04:04 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 03:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  Jesus fuck, what's with Christians and bakeries? If you don't like providing services to the public don't fucking well operate a service industry business. This is not a difficult concept.

So gay bakers should be forced under threat of a $135,000 fine to bake a cake on which is written, "God Hates Fags" just because certain members of the public want it? According to your logic they should because they operate in a fucking service industry that caters to the public. Of course this is silly.

When the civil rights act of 1964 came out, it applied to companies that contained a certain number of employees. It didn't apply to individuals engaged in the exchange of goods a services. Why? Because individuals selling their labor should be free to discriminate.

Giving to people something you offer as your service is what is being legally demanded.

Asking someone to do something THEY DONT DO and haven't done, isn't the case. If someone can't understand this they better not be serving people food because they're a likely threat to harm with how mindless they are.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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31-07-2015, 04:39 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 04:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So gay bakers should be forced under threat of a $135,000 fine to bake a cake on which is written, "God Hates Fags" just because certain members of the public want it? According to your logic they should because they operate in a fucking service industry that caters to the public. Of course this is silly.

The issue is not the message on the cake, dickhead. The article you linked states that the people flat out refused to serve them. If a gay baker refused to serve a Christian couple *that* would be discrimination.

I forgive you for calling me a dickhead.

However if you read the article it is quite clear. The baker refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. A wedding cake speaks about the wedding and conveys a message.
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31-07-2015, 04:41 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 04:04 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So gay bakers should be forced under threat of a $135,000 fine to bake a cake on which is written, "God Hates Fags" just because certain members of the public want it? According to your logic they should because they operate in a fucking service industry that caters to the public. Of course this is silly.

When the civil rights act of 1964 came out, it applied to companies that contained a certain number of employees. It didn't apply to individuals engaged in the exchange of goods a services. Why? Because individuals selling their labor should be free to discriminate.

Giving to people something you offer as your service is what is being legally demanded.

Asking someone to do something THEY DONT DO and haven't done, isn't the case. If someone can't understand this they better not be serving people food because they're a likely threat to harm with how mindless they are.

They don't bake cakes for gay weddings.....and now they are forced too or continue to face persecution from the state......so yes it is the case.
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31-07-2015, 04:47 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 04:39 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  The issue is not the message on the cake, dickhead. The article you linked states that the people flat out refused to serve them. If a gay baker refused to serve a Christian couple *that* would be discrimination.

I forgive you for calling me a dickhead.

However if you read the article it is quite clear. The baker refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. A wedding cake speaks about the wedding and conveys a message.

It's that he refused to sell them a cake, a cake that he often makes for people. The baker makes wedding cakes but wants to deny the couple it based on their lesbianism. It's illegal on the same level of other civil liberties.

It's not the same thing as refusing to write X on a cake and sell it. The Baker doesn't have legal standing of having to write anything wanted on the cakes. If they said write gay wedding and the baker refused, it wouldn't be the same issue as long as cakes were still offered to buy, but just didn't do something that the Baker doesn't do anyway.

It's just like how it wouldn't force a Kosher Deli to sell Ham to a person. They don't sell Ham so it's not discrimination to not sell ham. What would be discrimination is refusing to sell something the Deli does sell like corned beef to a Muslim because he wasn't approving of Muslims.

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31-07-2015, 04:55 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 04:41 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:04 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Giving to people something you offer as your service is what is being legally demanded.

Asking someone to do something THEY DONT DO and haven't done, isn't the case. If someone can't understand this they better not be serving people food because they're a likely threat to harm with how mindless they are.

They don't bake cakes for gay weddings.....and now they are forced too or continue to face persecution from the state......so yes it is the case.

Dear Christ you are a fucking idiot. *Legally* it was discrimination *as determined by a court*. If you've got a problem with that, get the law changed.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-07-2015, 05:04 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 04:55 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:41 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  They don't bake cakes for gay weddings.....and now they are forced too or continue to face persecution from the state......so yes it is the case.

Dear Christ you are a fucking idiot. *Legally* it was discrimination *as determined by a court*. If you've got a problem with that, get the law changed.

I forgive you for calling me a fucking idiot.

But the retort, "Get the law changed if you don't like it"......really isn't a good counter argument. To be honest......it comes off as a little weak minded. I know you could do better than this if you just put a little work into your debating skills.
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31-07-2015, 05:08 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 05:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:55 AM)morondog Wrote:  Dear Christ you are a fucking idiot. *Legally* it was discrimination *as determined by a court*. If you've got a problem with that, get the law changed.

I forgive you for calling me a fucking idiot.

But the retort, "Get the law changed if you don't like it"......really isn't a good counter argument. To be honest......it comes off as a little weak minded. I know you could do better than this if you just put a little work into your debating skills.

Well you're certainly working your jacking off skills.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-07-2015, 05:41 AM
RE: Christian persecution
(31-07-2015 04:39 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  The issue is not the message on the cake, dickhead. The article you linked states that the people flat out refused to serve them. If a gay baker refused to serve a Christian couple *that* would be discrimination.

I forgive you for calling me a dickhead.

However if you read the article it is quite clear. The baker refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. A wedding cake speaks about the wedding and conveys a message.

The wedding cake does not speak about the wedding, any more than do the chairs at the venue; it speaks only about the baker's competence in combining flour, sugar, etc.

The baker in question singled one sort of marriage-related "sin," homosexuality, while not similarly refusing cakes to couples who had committed other sins, such as previous divorces for issues other than adultery. One can speculate that the baker might defend this practice by saying that it's easier to detect the "sin" of gay marriage, but this is nothing more than a rationalization. The true objective is to shame the potential customers out of their "sinful lifestyle" by making it more difficult and expensive for gay people to get married. One should not have to go to six bakeries to find one wedding cake. The extra time involved, as well as the reduced selection available to the customer, as well as the fact that bakery number six, knowing that it is the only choice in town, can charge a higher price, lead to a situation where services available to the gay market are separate and unequal.

Protected class laws recognize a shitty fact of human nature, that the majority will, more often than not (see: Jim Crow, India and the caste system, European ghettos, etc., etc., etc.) go out of its way to shame and otherwise keep separate a minority. In the early stages of a minority group's move towards fully equal status, therefore, extra protection is often helpful. In 40 years, we may not need these laws. The baker's children or grandchildren will bake wedding cakes for all customers and be embarrassed about the bigoted views held by their grandparents. But for now, these laws, and their enforcement, are necessary.

The bakers had many options available to them that would have avoided both the fine and the subsequent judgment, as the judgment itself was much larger than the fine and partly reflected the subsequent behavior of the business owners, who released the personal information of the declined customers. A few of these options: 1) Bake the cake. 2) Decline to bake the cake, but not tell the customer it was because of their sexual orientation. 3) Move operations to a state where gays are not a protected class. 4) Stop being a public accommodation business. 5) Stop offering wedding cakes as part of the product line.

This does not qualify as persecution of Christians in any way whatsoever.
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31-07-2015, 05:43 AM
RE: Christian persecution
While I understand the issue of discrimination with regards to who a business will or will not serve - I don't understand trying to force someone to sell me anything...particularly a food. If they are that hateful and close-minded I am just not sure that I want to give them my money nor do I want someone who hates me to cook for me.

It is a rare commodity that's only available at one outlet.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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