Christian racism...
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17-03-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: Christian racism...
(17-03-2013 01:55 PM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  
(17-03-2013 12:23 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  You missed my point about Iran. Trade sanctions make it impossible for the people in the sanctioned country to: a) sell their products abroad b) purchase products from abroad. When this happens, the sanction country's economy depresses and people become poor. Poor people can't afford food, especially when the people in government are tyrannical and/or dictatorial. Of course, you can argue that there would be no sanctions if the leaders of Iran weren't prone to attacking other countries and you'd be correct. But... those leaders consider their attacks to be defensive. And frankly, they're correct. After all, how many Iranian military bases are in the US, the UK, Canada, Germany, et al? How many North Korean military bases are in those countries? How many Chinese military bases? In the end, when government officials between countries have these dick measuring contests, it is the poor, innocent and helpless who suffer the most.

And, you're trying to move the goalposts. We weren't discussing local government, we were discussing federal government. Affecting a change in the zoning law on your block has nothing to do with Barack Obama or George Bush sending young men and women over seas to murder and be murdered. Moreover, you got a letter about SOPA, most likely from a politician who's a member of the same party you're registered with. You weren't given a vote.
Just for the record my friend, China does not have sanctions against Iran, in fact they do business with the country quite often. It's one of the main reasons why the US hasn't initiated conflict with Iran. Also, I'm not registered with any political party at the moment. The email about SOPA came from it's opposition as a newsletter because I signed their petition.
Thanks for the clarification. It doesn't change anything I said.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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17-03-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: Christian racism...
(17-03-2013 10:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(17-03-2013 06:15 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  Starcrash- As I noted above, in later post I corrected myself and made clear that I am talking about "Christians" (people claim faith, but their actions defy their message). I'm not pleading for anything, I'm making my position perfectly clear. If you don't want to take the debate to the forefront, then that is your decision and you have by all means the right to maintain that position. However, I on the other hand am tired of sitting back and watching while people like Pat Robertson gets to spew his insane garbage into the ears of my countrymen. Right and wrong are simply a matter of perspective, unless you are suggesting that there is an "absolute morality". The things I oppose are those which do not make for a more progressive and humane society. So I'm not concerned about whether a church has a bake sale or hosts a summer event for children, these things don't concern me because they are not leading to the degradation of anyone ( with maybe the exception of the famed "Jesus Camp", but that's a whole other story).

Your definition of "Christians" still doesn't make you unprejudiced -- it just means that you're prejudiced against a smaller group of people. Even "people [who] claim faith, but [whose] actions defy their message" are not, as a whole, guilty of the things of which you're accusing them.

And if you're not familiar with special pleading, then you ought to look it up. It doesn't mean or suggest that you were making your position unclear, and so your position could be perfectly clear and you could still be pleading that your particular case should get special treatment as being exempt from judged right or wrong. Your further attempt to minimize the ideas of "right and wrong" by asserting that they are a matter of perspective is easily answered by giving you perspective: they are "logically wrong". Double-standards (special pleading) are a logical fallacy, as is prejudice and stereotyping (hasty generalization).

And I do in fact "take the debate to the forefront", but in response to the actual people making these actual errors (such as in comments to their blogs and videos). To attack Christians in general isn't very effective, because Christians who don't identify with the things said about them will ignore the rest of what's being said. Unless by taking the debate to the forefront you're suggesting something as irrational as vigilantism or terrorism... in which case, what did you think was so wrong about the KKK? Surely you don't seem to have a problem with their approach against the people that they are prejudiced against. Was your problem with them simply the target of their prejudice?
Yes I do have a problem with the KKK's approach. They advocate violence and suppression, two things I have already stated that I am firmly against. The only reason they don't continue to act out these tenants is because of tougher laws that were passed against hate crimes.

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17-03-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Christian racism...
Hey, Death.

Quote:Yes I do have a problem with the KKK's approach. They advocate violence
and suppression, two things I have already stated that I am firmly
against. The only reason they don't continue to act out these tenants is
because of tougher laws that were passed against hate crimes.

Come on now. That's a crime of omission.





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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17-03-2013, 11:12 PM
RE: Christian racism...
(17-03-2013 02:04 PM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  Yes I do have a problem with the KKK's approach. They advocate violence and suppression, two things I have already stated that I am firmly against. The only reason they don't continue to act out these tenants is because of tougher laws that were passed against hate crimes.

The KKK do violent acts, but the reason that they're allowed to continue to organize and speak publicly is that the vast majority of their acts are legal. They peacefully protest, they exercise free speech, and they boycott. The reason why many of us don't support the KKK, even if they never acted violently again, is because of their hate against entire groups of people. Hate isn't cool, no matter what the reason. It doesn't lead to positive change.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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18-03-2013, 05:47 AM
RE: Christian racism...
(17-03-2013 02:03 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(17-03-2013 01:55 PM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  Just for the record my friend, China does not have sanctions against Iran, in fact they do business with the country quite often. It's one of the main reasons why the US hasn't initiated conflict with Iran. Also, I'm not registered with any political party at the moment. The email about SOPA came from it's opposition as a newsletter because I signed their petition.
Thanks for the clarification. It doesn't change anything I said.
I was thinking, if you'd like to have a purely political discussion/debate I'm game, but if so should we discuss the topic here or on a more topic specific forum?

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18-03-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Christian racism...
(18-03-2013 05:47 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  
(17-03-2013 02:03 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Thanks for the clarification. It doesn't change anything I said.
I was thinking, if you'd like to have a purely political discussion/debate I'm game, but if so should we discuss the topic here or on a more topic specific forum?
Nothing wrong with a thread going off topic organically but if we're to breach an entirely difference subject, courtesy dictates that we move the discussion. I started a thread on anarchism a while ago or you can create a thread in the political section if you have a specific topic you'd like to debate. I'm happy with either.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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18-03-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: Christian racism...
Wow this thread disintegrated quickly!

To bring it back to the original idea--as I say it--, if I might, why are christians allowed, often encouraged to be racist, and what do those more mainline, progressive christians do about it?

The crux of the matter, the racism that is so prevalent in christianity can go back to their chosen interpretation of their book, right? It's a form of "other-ising"-- they are making "those people" less than. Those people are us, they're black, brown, green and orange; they're pro-choice, they're anti-death penalty; they're pro-immigrant reform, they're pro-LGBT and pro-science. Anything that doesn't fit into the narrow interpretation of their book gets listed under their "culture war" listing of "Things We Hate!"

I saw this all the time, growing up in evangelical christianity (Independent Fundamental Baptist, if you're curious); anyone who didn't go to our church, who didn't believe the exact same way we did, who might have questions that we didn't like, weren't comfortable with, they were heretics and should be shunned, cast out, and 'prayed for'. Because we knew we were right, and Gawd said it, then everyone else was wrong, and we have to Hate that Sin!!! (but love the sinner, whatever the hell that was supposed to mean).

This is preached all over, especially on television, including the Falwells and Roberstons in the broadcast world-- they're just louder about their hatred, the very hates that they can justify with their book, that millions of christians are justifying every single day.

Now, as to why those who are 'mainline' don't call out Phelps? That one's just ridiculously easy, and falls to parsing words. Imagine you're doing your thing, living your life, right? Some asshole starts protesting about something you don't care about, or isn't relevant to you (you've made up your mind), he isn't you, so he isn't important. It doesn't matter to them that he's co-opting their faith for the media, he isn't them, he isn't even one of them, he's crazy, he doesn't count; so why are we asking them about him anyway?

No, it never occurs to many of them that they expect every Muslim to be out in front of every single story about radicals, but they don't have to work against their own. Their privilege is showing.

There are some very good people who follow christianity. My father is one. He works so hard being a good person, that he doens't have time to protest, proselytise or be hateful. He just lives. If he saw or heard someone being nasty, he's step in-- he doesn't see it, because he doesn't seek it out. He's not a fundie, he's not hateful

There are some very hateful people who follow christianity, my mother and her parents are some. The more fundie someone becomes, the more hardline their informational sources, the more echo-chamber, right? This is why Falwell had an audience-- he was preaching to his national choir. The fewer and fewer that they become, the louder and more afraid they will be-- so we'll have to stand with our friends who aren't absolutely mad, otherwise they'll get crucified right with us, because they were so busy being good people, they forgot the 12th commandment which is "Thou shalt hate everyone your pastors tell you to hate, thus saith the Lord. Yea, even if it maketh no sense, and infereth with your ability to live your life like a human rather than a walking fungi."
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18-03-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: Christian racism...
(18-03-2013 12:41 PM)RedHead Confetti Wrote:  Wow this thread disintegrated quickly!
It happens...

In summary, the reason why most Christians don't act out like Phelps, et al, is that they aren't following their rule book like they should. Like them or don't, the Phelps family are very well versed in the Bible and in US law. They don't make up the things they protest, they find where US law contradicts Biblical law and that is the foundation of their protest efforts. From a Biblical perspective, they are good Christians while people such as your father would be considered apostates.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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18-03-2013, 05:15 PM
RE: Christian racism...
(18-03-2013 11:40 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(18-03-2013 05:47 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  I was thinking, if you'd like to have a purely political discussion/debate I'm game, but if so should we discuss the topic here or on a more topic specific forum?
Nothing wrong with a thread going off topic organically but if we're to breach an entirely difference subject, courtesy dictates that we move the discussion. I started a thread on anarchism a while ago or you can create a thread in the political section if you have a specific topic you'd like to debate. I'm happy with either.
I created a discussion within the politics forum for our discussion.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...h-bbeljefe

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18-03-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: Christian racism...
(18-03-2013 12:41 PM)RedHead Confetti Wrote:  I saw this all the time, growing up in evangelical christianity (Independent Fundamental Baptist, if you're curious); anyone who didn't go to our church, who didn't believe the exact same way we did, who might have questions that we didn't like, weren't comfortable with, they were heretics and should be shunned, cast out, and 'prayed for'. Because we knew we were right, and Gawd said it, then everyone else was wrong, and we have to Hate that Sin!!! (but love the sinner, whatever the hell that was supposed to mean).

The reason this thread got derailed is because, despite the fact that we all acknowledge racism within the Christian community, the root cause is (as you've hit upon) in-group, out-group thinking. While this may have manifested as racism among Christians, it finds its place in every group. While I personally identify as an atheist, I don't really identify with the "atheist community" because then I would get into this mindset of strengthening bonds inside the group by bashing other groups. I never want to be that guy.

So while we can have a rational discussion about the racism prevalent among Christians, it's almost impossible to discuss what's wrong with "them" without degrading into hypocrisy.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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