Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-08-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 01:59 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Ummm.... Thanks for refuting his own argument, bro.Thumbsup

Read what you say, and tell me why he CAN'T change the future, remember, god can't change, so says the bible.

GOD CAN'T CHANGE.

I never said God changed anything that He did. He set it up perfectly. Any change would be a contradiction to His infinite being. The original "change" mentioned was that of His creation of all from the beginning of infinity (sic). His omnipotence is because of His omniscient and His omniscience is because of His omnipotence.

Then.... Can God change, according to his plan, ot does he remain the same for all time? Can God change against his plan?

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:06 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 01:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But in Christian theology, there is infinity in each of these.
Can you even back this up with the Bible? You're talking about Christian theology after all. Then again, it's completely irrelevant in this discussions because the definition of these words is not subject to religious interpretations.

Answers here.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 01:07 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  KC I think the problem here is this:

A2 supplied an argument:
A2 ARGUMENT: God is omnipotent & God is omniscient.
-> Contradiction.

Your reply was
KC ARGUMENT: God is infinite therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

Now you're saying:
You're not allowed to challenge that God is infinite.

OK fine, but I think A2 was frustrated because you could have said
God is a banana therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

I would like to challenge the bolded 'therefore', because my hypothesis is that your word infinity is just another of those theistic code words for "stop asking questions" that we've all come to know and love Big Grin

So I ask you, what do you understand by the statement that God is infinite? If "God is infinite" *means the same thing as* "God is omniscient & omnipotent", then you agree that KC ARGUMENT is a tautology and hence just playing word games, not revealing some deep truth?

If this is the case then A2 ARGUMENT is rephrased as "God is infinite -> Contradiction".

What we're trying to do is establish how there is no contradiction? *Elucidate* for us how the contradiction is avoided. You can say "well the rules are different for infinite things" but then I have to ask you how you know that God is infinite. In a sense, yes, because you take that as a premise we can't challenge it but what we have then succeeded in doing is showing that there *is* a need to examine the basis of your theology, since if we accept it unquestioningly then it's maybe internally consistent, so the search for truth moves outward, from "if I accept this logic system then it works, as far as I can tell" to "what are the reasons for me to accept this logic system".

(I add the maybe because there's so far no proof that even mathematics itself is internally consistent, so there's not much hope for such a precarious logic system as theology Tongue ).

Ultimately you will *have* to investigate this. Just declaring that examining exactly how you know that God is infinite and what that means is an out of bounds question...

Well, look, you haven't actually done that. I'm *pointing out a danger* to you, rather than *accusing you of * <insert crime against logic of your choice>...

Sorry I rambled quite a lot there. I got excited 'cos someone mentioned set theory Smile

Why the fuck do you guys call me A2?

What is your opinion on my arguement, is it flawed, or what?

Because that's your name. Silly Rooskie.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Erxomai's post
03-08-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:12 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I never said God changed anything that He did. He set it up perfectly. Any change would be a contradiction to His infinite being. The original "change" mentioned was that of His creation of all from the beginning of infinity (sic). His omnipotence is because of His omniscient and His omniscience is because of His omnipotence.

Then.... Can God change, according to his plan, ot does he remain the same for all time? Can God change against his plan?

See what I said about the God-rock paradox.

In short, the answer is "no".

But, this doesn't affect His omnipotence, because according to His omnipotence, a change simply cannot be in existence as it is a contradiction to omnipotence.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:19 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:12 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Then.... Can God change, according to his plan, ot does he remain the same for all time? Can God change against his plan?

See what I said about the God-rock paradox.

In short, the answer is "no".

But, this doesn't affect His omnipotence, because according to His omnipotence, a change simply cannot be in existence as it is a contradiction to omnipotence.

So God is limited by logical consistency, and therefore not omnipotent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
03-08-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
From KC's source.
Quote:However, if we were to insist that omnipotent meant God could do anything and everything at all, we would need to reject that description, because His word says He cannot! For example, God “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2), and He “cannot deny Himself” (2 Timothy 2:13). The Bible clearly shows that God cannot act contrary to His nature. But do these “cannots” mean He is not omnipotent—not almighty?

Christianese takes over here

Quote:Not if we let Scripture define its own terms!

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:19 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  See what I said about the God-rock paradox.

In short, the answer is "no".

But, this doesn't affect His omnipotence, because according to His omnipotence, a change simply cannot be in existence as it is a contradiction to omnipotence.

So God is limited by logical consistency, and therefore not omnipotent.

God cannot deny himself, therefore,mnot omnipotent.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:13 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:06 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can you even back this up with the Bible? You're talking about Christian theology after all. Then again, it's completely irrelevant in this discussions because the definition of these words is not subject to religious interpretations.

Answers here.

The Christianese term is still in direct contradiction to itself.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 02:13 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:06 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can you even back this up with the Bible? You're talking about Christian theology after all. Then again, it's completely irrelevant in this discussions because the definition of these words is not subject to religious interpretations.

Answers here.
C'mon KC, you can do better than that. Using the King James Version as a source? No

Quote:Is God Omnipotent?

This is, perhaps, the easiest of the three to answer: Yes, God is omnipotent! There is even a verse that, in the King James Version and New King James Version, uses this very word: “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!” (Revelation 19:6).

The Greek word translated as “Omnipotent” here is pantokrator, meaning “All-ruling” or (as it is more frequently translated) “Almighty.” When we say God is “Almighty,” we are stating our belief in His authority and rulership over all creation, and the Bible is firm in declaring this fact. Even though Satan is now the “god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4), it belongs to him only because Almighty God has granted it to Him: “And the devil said to Him, ‘All this authority [over all the kingdoms of this world] I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish’” (Luke 4:6).

It is God who ultimately reigns in the universe, and all legitimate authority must derive from Him. If we let Scripture tell us of God’s authority, we must agree that He has all authority to do all His pleasure (Isaiah 46:10–11), and to see to the fulfillment of His plans without fail. If we accept the Scriptural definition of “almighty”—and we must accept no other!—we can rightly call God omnipotent. Indeed, Christ says clearly that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
Notice how there's not one word about god being infinite/his omnipotence requiring infinity.

Quote:The Bible clearly shows that God cannot act contrary to His nature. But do these “cannots” mean He is not omnipotent—not almighty? Not if we let Scripture define its own terms!
Unfortunately, we're using the established dictionary definitions and not definitions made up by theists to fit their belief.

Quote: Is God Omnipresent?

Correctly understood, the question of God’s omnipotence has historically caused little controversy. The term omnipresent, however, has caused more trouble. Basically, being omnipresent means being present everywhere at the same time. Can this term be applied to God? What does Scripture tell us?

Ask yourself: is there any physical location in this universe where we can hide from the presence of God? The answer, according to Scripture, is a resounding “No!” In fact, King David posed this question directly, asking: “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).

David answers the question beautifully: it is futile to search for a place to hide from the presence of God (and it is unwise to try—just ask Jonah!). In this sense, God’s infallible word shows that He is omnipresent—within His vast creation, there is no place where you can hide from His presence.

Still, we must be careful with our terms! Many have tried to twist God’s omnipresence to portray Him as some kind of shapeless “blob”—even though the Bible clearly shows that God has a body and a shape—and it is a shape like ours! Consider Genesis 1:26, which tells us that man is made in God’s image and likeness—words that do convey a sense of shape. We do not use human philosophies to avoid the clear statements of Scripture! Consider, as well, the passage in which God says unambiguously that He has a face, a hand and a back (Exodus 33:18–23)! The only way to understand this passage from Exodus without making a mockery of God’s word is to agree that God has a shape and a body!

So, how is God “everywhere”? We already read the answer, in David’s words: “Where can I go from your Spirit?” (Psalm 139:7). It is by their Spirit that the Father and the glorified Christ have complete access to their creation! Through His Spirit, God’s reach extends to every nook and cranny of the universe, and there is—as David wrote—no place to flee from His presence. Yet He still retains a shape—a body—ruling in glory from His throne in heaven. It is from there that “His eyes behold” the sons of men (Psalm 11:4).

We must also note that although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him. In fact, we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus Christ experienced this horrible separation during His crucifixion, when on our behalf He took upon Himself the full penalty of our sins (cf. Mark 15:34; Isaiah 53:4–5).

The world’s scholars and theologians often have a wrong idea about God’s omnipresence. But if we let God’s flawless word teach us what God’s omnipresence truly means, our footing is made sure.
Notice how there's not one word about god being infinite/his omnipresence requiring infinity.

Quote: Is God Omniscient?

Having considered God’s omnipotence and His omnipresence, we can address the most troublesome of the “Three ‘O’s”— His omniscience. Is God omniscient?

Philosophers and theologians have debated this question over the millennia. Were you to read what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says about God’s omniscience, you would find more philosophical gobbledygook than you may have seen in your entire life. So, before we determine whether or not God is omniscient, we need to recognize that the world has some weird and conflicting ideas about what this word means. Why is there so much confusion?

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006) offers this definition of omniscient: “having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.” That is quite a mouthful; what does it mean to have “complete or unlimited knowledge”? Scholars disagree about what it means, but if we let the lamp of God’s word light our path and guide our steps (Psalm 119:105), we can know the truth of the matter.

The Bible tells us that God does perceive all things, which means that no fact can be hidden from His knowledge. As King David recognized: “Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, but the night shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You” (Psalm 139:12). God sees all things, and nothing can be hidden from His knowledge—not even the secret intentions of the heart (Psalm 44:21). In fact, He understands our own intentions better than we do (cf. Jeremiah 17:9-10; Hebrews 4:12)! As Paul explains, “there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

Human beings perceive through the senses, but there are limits to what the senses let us perceive and understand. But God’s senses are not limited like ours! His Spirit searches all things (1 Corinthians 2:10), and nothing is beyond God’s ability to perceive it. In this sense, He is omniscient. Nothing can escape His gaze and His knowledge. If it can be known, He knows it!

Most of the choices we make each day may be rather predictable. Parents with young children can see this for themselves. If a parent can often predict a young child’s choices, how much more can the One who sees all—even the intent of our heart, which we sometimes do not know ourselves—predict our choices? Yet the Bible reveals that God does arrange circumstances to challenge our character— to help us to grow—where the outcome is not so predictable. When we choose, we participate with God in the creation of our character. We have a role to play in God’s creation of His character within us, as He prepares us to become future members of His Family! We should not allow vain philosophy to rob us of this truth.

It is not that God cannot determine the future. He can, and He does! We read: “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure’” (Isaiah 46:9–10).

Yet this passage shows that declaring the end from the beginning is not just a function of “seeing” what is “destined” to happen. Continuing in Isaiah, we read that God acts and intervenes in history to accomplish His ends, “calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it” (v. 11).
Notice how there's not one word about god being infinite/his omniscience requiring infinity.

Quote:But if we are to use the word omniscient to describe our Father and His glorified Son, it cannot mean that God knows our every choice before we make it in every circumstance, because Scripture tells us otherwise! For example, the Bible shows that when God gave Abraham the supreme test of sacrificing his son Isaac, He did not know until that moment whether Abraham would choose to obey. Upon seeing his choice, He told Abraham: “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me” (Genesis 22:12). This was one of the most crucial points in the history of faith and in the plan of God! It was a challenge so intense, and involving such faith, that God did not know what choice Abraham would make.
Have you even read the source you quoted before posting it? This passage right here says that god does not have predetermined everything and backs it up with scripture. You're citing a source that refutes your own belief.

Quote:We can say with confidence that God is omniscient. But we must allow the Bible to define what omniscient means. Let the world’s theologians and philosophers wander from the path of Scripture in their pointless arguments if they choose—we need not follow them!
Again, we're using the dictionary definitions and not definitions made up by theists to fit their belief.

Conclusion: At no point in this entire source was infinity even mentioned, which means you still have zero scriptural evidence for your particualr belief.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vosur's post
03-08-2012, 02:31 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
If I may... horn in here Smile

Here's my solution to the time paradox A2 proposed.

Let's picture the universe as 3 dimensional for the moment, about the size of a watermelon, and in front of you right now. Hold it in your hands. we'll make one dimension time and the other two dimensions space dimensions Smile

Call the time dimension t and the other two x and y.

Now, you're *outside* this universe. You can *see* all time within the universe. You can squeeze the watermelon or twist it. From the outside looking in, you can change both the future and the past of the universe. But for someone one the inside who experiences time only going in one direction (the arrow of time), he *cannot tell* that anything has changed.

It's not quite a solution to the God omnipotence problem because it solves it by saying "God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent etc *within this universe*" i.e. it limits his omnipotence to only what's on the inside.

On the outside, God still can't do the dildo trick Big Grin

...

I'm in a weird mood today. Playing Christian games Dodgy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: