Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
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01-08-2012, 08:50 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 08:46 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(01-08-2012 07:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  because I'm pro-gay

Is that another colloquialism for artificial insemination? Angel

Only if you want it to be.

And, you know what... I've derailed yet another topic.

I'm sorry Ryan.

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01-08-2012, 08:59 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 08:45 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(01-08-2012 08:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The verse that fstratzero posted earlier in this thread clearly contradicts this.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-48)

His teaching is the exact opposite of what was said in the OT. By replacing "Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth" with his teachings, he does abolish the law, because he renders it invalid.

I probably should have been clearer about what I meant, I'm sorry.

The blueprint that Jesus follows is teaching people what God has instructed. His speaking against these things because He is God incarnate and this is what God wants.

The following of the law is following God. Jesus has come to fulfill God's instructions and to follow what God has commanded.

Does that make sense?

It is interesting to note that god came back and then reformed the laws he himself created.

Perhaps that's why people love christ so much. He must be seen as gods softer side.

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01-08-2012, 09:04 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 04:54 AM)ryanfox Wrote:  Hi guys! Not a first time poster here but it's been awhile.

I recently slapped down [temporarily] an anti-gay Christian by pointing out all the ridiculous laws and oppression of women contained in Leviticus and various other parts of the Bible; asking why he clings to god's anti gay policy but not the anti-shaving, anti-pork, and anti-women policies, to name a few. He said he'd get back on to me on my "misunderstanding." In the meantime, I'm trying to educate myself on what Christians usually say in response to such things. I know they say it's the OT and Jesus abolished that, but I've argued against that before so I'm ready for that. This, however, is a smart guy who's good with words so I'm curious what he might throw at me. Have any of you been in a similar situation? An actual smart Christian arguing about why certain biblical rules should be followed and others shouldn't?

Thanks a lot!

Well you can point him to Matthew 5:17, but no fun in that. Point him to this!! http://www.greatcom.org/resources/reason...efault.htm
Read it, it's pretty funny.

Let me quote from it:

"If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct. Many want to accept Jesus, but also want to reject a large portion of the Old Testament. This option is not available. Either Jesus knew what He was talking about or He did not. The evidence is clear that Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God's Word; His attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust."

Conclusion: Jebus garanteed the OT NOT abolish it.
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01-08-2012, 09:07 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 08:46 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ...weaponized morality.

What can one say... prophecy knows it's shit. Angel

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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01-08-2012, 09:08 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 08:45 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I probably should have been clearer about what I meant, I'm sorry.

The blueprint that Jesus follows is teaching people what God has instructed. His speaking against these things because He is God incarnate and this is what God wants.

The following of the law is following God. Jesus has come to fulfill God's instructions and to follow what God has commanded.

Does that make sense?
Malachi 3:5-6
"5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

If God doesn't change, then how come he's all of the sudden okay with gay people, why is it all of the sudden no longer required to sacrifice animals, why are you no longer supposed to seek revenge when somebody hurts you, etc.? How can Jesus fulfill God's will if his will is something completely different?

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01-08-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 09:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-08-2012 08:45 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I probably should have been clearer about what I meant, I'm sorry.

The blueprint that Jesus follows is teaching people what God has instructed. His speaking against these things because He is God incarnate and this is what God wants.

The following of the law is following God. Jesus has come to fulfill God's instructions and to follow what God has commanded.

Does that make sense?
Malachi 3:5-6
"5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

If God doesn't change, then how come he's all of the sudden okay with gay people, why is it all of the sudden no longer required to sacrifice animals, why are you no longer supposed to seek revenge when somebody hurts you, etc.? And even this verse doesn't exist, why would he, all of the sudden, change his mind completely?

This is getting into major apologetics and theology... but anyway...

God didn't change.

If God is all knowing and infinite, then it was His plan for the ancient Hebrews to follow these laws and not the new believers via Jesus. His plan was always this, so it didn't change.

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01-08-2012, 09:20 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God didn't change.

If God is all knowing and infinite, then it was His plan for the ancient Hebrews to follow these laws and not the new believers via Jesus. His plan was always this, so it didn't change.
Didn't you just refer me to a quote in which Jesus (aka God) claimed that the Old Testament's laws are still valid? If Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, then obviously the laws weren't meant solely for the ancient Hebrews. If God didn't want anyone but the Hebrews to follow the old laws, then Jesus would have come precisely to abolish them and establish new ones.

I pointed you to a verse that describes this scenario. Jesus introduces a new law that refutes the previously valid law. The law of seeking revenge for someone hurting you and the law of letting yourself get hurt without defending yourself cannot co-exist. They directly contradict each other.

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01-08-2012, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2012 09:54 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(01-08-2012 09:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Malachi 3:5-6
"5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

If God doesn't change, then how come he's all of the sudden okay with gay people, why is it all of the sudden no longer required to sacrifice animals, why are you no longer supposed to seek revenge when somebody hurts you, etc.? And even this verse doesn't exist, why would he, all of the sudden, change his mind completely?

This is getting into major apologetics and theology... but anyway...

God didn't change.

If God is all knowing and infinite, then it was His plan for the ancient Hebrews to follow these laws and not the new believers via Jesus. His plan was always this, so it didn't change.

Finally!

I knew that at some point you'd need an apologetic source to battle atheists and reconcile ideas within the bible to come to cognitive consistency.

But it's been shown in the thread you can prove in a loose sense two different ideas when you use the bible as a source. At the very least this should raise a red flag to your belief.

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01-08-2012, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2012 09:56 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
kingschosen Wrote:This is getting into major apologetics and theology... but anyway...

God didn't change.

If God is all knowing and infinite, then it was His plan for the ancient Hebrews to follow these laws and not the new believers via Jesus. His plan was always this, so it didn't change.

In every instance of thought, from humans to ai, a choice requires a change in brain states.

God cannot have chosen to make the world, to make a plan, to communicate with his creations, unless he chooses to do so.

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01-08-2012, 11:15 AM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(01-08-2012 08:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I... think... I get what you're saying...

God imprinted His image on humanity... whenever... can't pinpoint that.

God chose the Hebrews to carry the Messianic line ~4K years ago. I think you think that I think that the Hebrews were the origin of God's story for humanity. This isn't the case... God picks up the story well after imprinting His image on humanity.

Did I answer anything you wanted?

er... I'm not sure Tongue My turn to be confused.

Here's a more concrete clarification: if the reason for those horrible laws in the OT is to preserve the Messianic line, at what point did God decide that it was in need of preserving, given that humans had been evolving for millions of years. Was there an ape ancestor who was *not* counted as of the messianic line, just plain ole ornery human? I think there must have been (if I temporarily suspend my disbelief and attempt to apply logic). Furthermore, *why* as all powerful God would you need to preserve your messianic line from buggery? If the messiah's ancestors do matter then by definition God the elector who tells people they're elect and burns everyone else isn't gonna let them be all sparkly... unless they have free will and are gonna run out and bugger everything in sight Tongue

Plus like I said it seems mightily unfair to the poor bastards who were in the sodomy racket back in the day...
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