Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
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03-08-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:39 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Okay... not meaning to pick on you... but this is what I'm talking about.

Atheists love to do this right here. You're changing what the argument is about and placing the burden of proof on whether or not God exists and His attributes.

This is unfair arguing.

The argument is about theology; not about God's existence or His attributes. My theology is that God is infinite. The argument is whether or not omnipotence is limited my omniscience; not whether or not I can prove that God is infinite.

My theology is not in question here. It is my theology that God is infinite. The acceptance of this is paramount within the argument of whether omniscience cancels omnipotence. By arguing that omniscience cancels omnipotence, there is an acceptance of my theology of God; if not, then you cannot make this debate with me.

I cannot prove God's attributes. So, from what you just said, no debate should even be taking place.

No, you just made an unfounded assumption that circular logic works on an infinite being. Since you have yet to prove he is infinite, I can't take you seriously.

And, that is a theology debate.

I cannot prove that God is infinite; therefore, I'm assuming this can't continue?

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03-08-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:49 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  No, you just made an unfounded assumption that circular logic works on an infinite being. Since you have yet to prove he is infinite, I can't take you seriously.

And, that is a theology debate.

I cannot prove that God is infinite; therefore, I'm assuming this can't continue?

No, seriously, stop assuming. Start evaulating, and please, please... Stop spouting that God is infinite when you can't support the claim.

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03-08-2012, 12:53 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:51 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:49 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  And, that is a theology debate.

I cannot prove that God is infinite; therefore, I'm assuming this can't continue?

No, seriously, stop assuming. Start evaulating, and please, please... Stop spouting that God is infinite when you can't support the claim.

God is infinite in my theology.

That's not the debate.

Since you cannot accept that (per what you said), and I can't prove it, where else can we go?

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03-08-2012, 12:55 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:51 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  No, seriously, stop assuming. Start evaulating, and please, please... Stop spouting that God is infinite when you can't support the claim.

God is infinite in my theology.

That's not the debate.

Since you cannot accept that (per what you said), and I can't prove it, where else can we go?
To argue with you, I have to accept that God is infinite? The fuck?

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03-08-2012, 12:57 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:55 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  God is infinite in my theology.

That's not the debate.

Since you cannot accept that (per what you said), and I can't prove it, where else can we go?
To argue with you, I have to accept that God is infinite? The fuck?

No.

To argue that God's omniscience cancels His omnipotence, you have to accept that God is infinite.

Omniscience and omnipotence are attributes of infinity.

Whether you believe that God is infinite or not is irrelevant to the argument.

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03-08-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
KC I think the problem here is this:

A2 supplied an argument:
A2 ARGUMENT: God is omnipotent & God is omniscient.
-> Contradiction.

Your reply was
KC ARGUMENT: God is infinite therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

Now you're saying:
You're not allowed to challenge that God is infinite.

OK fine, but I think A2 was frustrated because you could have said
God is a banana therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

I would like to challenge the bolded 'therefore', because my hypothesis is that your word infinity is just another of those theistic code words for "stop asking questions" that we've all come to know and love Big Grin

So I ask you, what do you understand by the statement that God is infinite? If "God is infinite" *means the same thing as* "God is omniscient & omnipotent", then you agree that KC ARGUMENT is a tautology and hence just playing word games, not revealing some deep truth?

If this is the case then A2 ARGUMENT is rephrased as "God is infinite -> Contradiction".

What we're trying to do is establish how there is no contradiction? *Elucidate* for us how the contradiction is avoided. You can say "well the rules are different for infinite things" but then I have to ask you how you know that God is infinite. In a sense, yes, because you take that as a premise we can't challenge it but what we have then succeeded in doing is showing that there *is* a need to examine the basis of your theology, since if we accept it unquestioningly then it's maybe internally consistent, so the search for truth moves outward, from "if I accept this logic system then it works, as far as I can tell" to "what are the reasons for me to accept this logic system".

(I add the maybe because there's so far no proof that even mathematics itself is internally consistent, so there's not much hope for such a precarious logic system as theology Tongue ).

Ultimately you will *have* to investigate this. Just declaring that examining exactly how you know that God is infinite and what that means is an out of bounds question...

Well, look, you haven't actually done that. I'm *pointing out a danger* to you, rather than *accusing you of * <insert crime against logic of your choice>...

Sorry I rambled quite a lot there. I got excited 'cos someone mentioned set theory Smile
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03-08-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 12:55 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  To argue with you, I have to accept that God is infinite? The fuck?

No.

To argue that God's omniscience cancels His omnipotence, you have to accept that God is infinite.

Omniscience and omnipotence are attributes of infinity.

Whether you believe that God is infinite or not is irrelevant to the argument.
No I don't.

Its stupid of you to think so.

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03-08-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  KC I think the problem here is this:

A2 supplied an argument:
A2 ARGUMENT: God is omnipotent & God is omniscient.
-> Contradiction.

Your reply was
KC ARGUMENT: God is infinite therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

Now you're saying:
You're not allowed to challenge that God is infinite.

OK fine, but I think A2 was frustrated because you could have said
God is a banana therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

I would like to challenge the bolded 'therefore', because my hypothesis is that your word infinity is just another of those theistic code words for "stop asking questions" that we've all come to know and love Big Grin

So I ask you, what do you understand by the statement that God is infinite? If "God is infinite" *means the same thing as* "God is omniscient & omnipotent", then you agree that KC ARGUMENT is a tautology and hence just playing word games, not revealing some deep truth?

If this is the case then A2 ARGUMENT is rephrased as "God is infinite -> Contradiction".

What we're trying to do is establish how there is no contradiction? *Elucidate* for us how the contradiction is avoided. You can say "well the rules are different for infinite things" but then I have to ask you how you know that God is infinite. In a sense, yes, because you take that as a premise we can't challenge it but what we have then succeeded in doing is showing that there *is* a need to examine the basis of your theology, since if we accept it unquestioningly then it's maybe internally consistent, so the search for truth moves outward, from "if I accept this logic system then it works, as far as I can tell" to "what are the reasons for me to accept this logic system".

(I add the maybe because there's so far no proof that even mathematics itself is internally consistent, so there's not much hope for such a precarious logic system as theology Tongue ).

Ultimately you will *have* to investigate this. Just declaring that examining exactly how you know that God is infinite and what that means is an out of bounds question...

Well, look, you haven't actually done that. I'm *pointing out a danger* to you, rather than *accusing you of * <insert crime against logic of your choice>...

Sorry I rambled quite a lot there. I got excited 'cos someone mentioned set theory Smile

Why the fuck do you guys call me A2?

What is your opinion on my arguement, is it flawed, or what?

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03-08-2012, 01:09 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
(03-08-2012 12:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Omniscience and omnipotence are attributes of infinity.
You have yet to show how this is true. Drinking Beverage What's the causal relationship between being infinite and being omnipotence and omniscience?

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03-08-2012, 01:09 PM
RE: Christian responses to Leviticus et. al?
God is a unicorn therefore
God is omnipotent & omniscient & no contradiction.

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